Anatomy of a Camel Toe pt.2
Posted by Kathleen Fasanella on Apr 21, 2006 at 1:44 pm / Contractors, Fit and Sizing, Quality / Trackback
If Camel Toe had a big brother, his name would be “Wong”. You know what I mean, that bunch of wadded up fabric at your crotch. Levi’s 501 was infamous for the wong -and every pair was different. That’s because Levi’s has been outsourcing their product development for years. Rather than having product development at headquarters develop one set of patterns that would be then sent to each factory, the style was spec’ed in detail and each contractor was left to develop their own proprietary pattern based on the measurements. Well, as I’ll show you here, not all inches are created equal. Headquarters passes sample wong/camel toe patterns unknowingly because the most critical specs of waist and hip measures are met.
Below you’ll see how a camel toe/wong is born. Starting with the basic pattern on the left, some area is sliced off from the side seam and added onto the center front. With this, the makers seem to be saying that one inch in the front is equal to any other inch in the front (or back too but that comes later).
Taking an inch off the side seam and sticking it at the center front doesn’t make it equal which is why something would fit (if fit were defined as having enough fabric to cover body parts) in the waist and hip but you’d still end up with a wad or a toe in the crotch. The reason this happens is because the total crotch length is shortened. Adding fabric onto the center front effectively straightens that line. Unfortunately, you need that length in order to shape around the pod shaped body -in addition to the curvature of course. Presumably contractors test fit their own samples but upon whom? It is exceedingly rare that a fit model in an off-shore facility is going to match the physical dimensions of the larger boned and taller average US citizen.
The motivation for a pattern designed with the camel toe “feature” can be summed up in one word: savings. While the savings are not apparent from one pattern piece, consider the savings once the pattern has been make into a marker and paired with the other pieces. I realize the mocked-up marker below is incomplete; in real life, you will be able to fit in more pieces across the width than what I’ve shown here. Also missing are companion pieces such as pockets, waistbands and flys. The black ink indicates the placement of a better pattern. The blue shows the outlay of the camel toe patterns.
I should also mention that a similar problem occurs with the seat of pants which is why some pants don’t flatter your rear and your butt looks flat. Have you ever looked at a pair of “mom” jeans? I mean, really looked at them? Everybody’s got at least one pair. Try them on. I’ll bet you money your butt looks flatter in the back and you either have Camel Toe or her brother Wong in the front. Yeah, I know the waists are often higher too but try to overlook that -ignore styling issues- and just look at fit.
Another thing you can do is compare different pairs of jeans you have, compare jeans that fit you well vs. ones that don’t by turning them inside out and sticking the leg of one side into the other leg to expose the cross section of the crotch seam. Lay them flat and you’ll notice a big difference between the ones that are camel toed and the ones that fit you nicely. The camel toe ones will be straighter and shorter in the crotch line than the ones that bend to fit you nicely.
Camel Toe and Wong are usually brought to bear through outsourcing. Depending on the manufacturer placing the contract, contractors are often paid a package price per unit delivered. Therefore, there is an incentive for the contractor to tightly control marker utilization which defines the total yardage used. The reason a company like Levis (by no means the only transgressor) will assign package contracts is because Levis won’t need to source the fabric goods in the market closest to a given contractor unless they have to. Likewise, assuming the contractor had CAD facilities and Levis provided them with a pattern, the file transfer may not work due to conflicting file conversions. That might not seem like a big deal but I know of one pattern company in LA with the bulk of their revenue coming from file conversions. A manufacturer’s only other option is to ship a marker to the contractor but with the costs and time involved, that is usually untenable considering distances.
The solution to controlling these problems costs more but is unavoidable if you really care about the fit of your product. First, you must develop the pattern yourself or hire it out until you have a pattern you like. Then, you have to send that pattern to your contractor be it by file conversion or shipping. Unless your product is really simple -say pure rectangles, squares or circles, you’ll have to provide the pattern. Despite an entire industry grown up around the spec’ing of products and the advent of “technical designers”, there is no other way.
26 Responses to “Anatomy of a Camel Toe pt.2”
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April 21st, 2006
3:13 PM
Excellent overview of the macro-issues that can cause the problem.
Any chance you’re doing a part 3 that addresses the micro-issues involved?
April 21st, 2006
9:52 PM
Nice as this comment was, it’s been deleted because the poster left a fake email address. The policy around here is if you use a fake email address (I’m the only one who can see it), I’ll delete the comment and ban the user from the site. I didn’t ban Marie since there’s was no malice on her part but I do insist on being able to contact posters should need be. thanks
Kathleen
April 22nd, 2006
9:50 AM
I am 6′ tall and medium boned and have spent better than 40 years thinking the camel toe was my fault–a curse if you will–but now I am free! Free! FREE, I tell you! Blessings on you and all your house…
April 22nd, 2006
10:15 AM
Isn’t seat circumference also being lost?
April 25th, 2006
7:42 AM
Hmmm. So by making these two changes (taking off the side seam, and adding to the crotch), you’re telling me that two blights make a wong?
April 26th, 2006
5:52 AM
Great article, The tight fit has always been accepted for ages. I learned a little more insight having worked at a factory in usa before they began outsourcing. The designer designs patterns for the plotter which prints whatever is entered into the computer. The pattern is laid onto a stack of fabric for mass cutting. 1.cut by a cutter that may cut small tips off or cut over the line.
all parts are bundled and taken to the floor. Here zippers may be lost. parts may be taken out for repair and not put back in the correct order or subsituted from something made up by some one on the floor. Most of the bundle travels through the line together. Most problems occur when the machines that use folders trim too much fabric. A small margin of fabric is intended for triming by kniefs on the machine by the designer. Starting from the insertion of the fly. the joining may be off margin, the seat is sewn through folder as well as the inseam. The side seam is sewn on a serger and some people would trim the legs to make them match rather than stretch them as intended by the desinger. The inseam ,seat and joining is supposed to be notched to get it through the folder without having it wash out raw. If these parts need to be pulled on as they are sewn and if they do not come out even the uneven tip is just trimed off, thus elimating more fabric. the hem may be trimed to get through the the dhl because it does not sew over thick seams well. Even though They have spec that need to be followed I found that very few people followed them or even know what they were supposed to be. I have looked at jeans in stores and can say thanks to the people who make their own because then you can get the fit you want,ebbie
May 2nd, 2006
12:19 PM
Interesting topic! Too many times the fit of a garment is compromised by the need to maximize fabric.
As CAD software continues to evolve, pattern coversion becomes a non-issue. I train and support Production CAD software for the leading CAD software vendor and I can confidently assure you that this is an area that is constantly being developed in every software evolution.
Our pattern development program can import/export AAMA/ASTM DXF files as well as our number one competitors native files directly.
My company is Lectra and our main competitor is Gerber.
October 22nd, 2006
10:41 AM
what a great post! I just got your book and i love it. Patternmaking has always been my favorite part of making clothes. i just got your book and as a fledgling label am excited at all the great, great information. my question is, is there a method to draft a pants pattern for an individual from measurements? i’ve always had to rely on existing well-fitting patterns to look at as a jumping of point. But I want to make from scratch.
October 22nd, 2006
9:07 PM
Diane
Of course there are systems, that allows you to make very precise individual pattern from scratch. In some cases you will need additional and rather “unconventional” measurements, but the time, effort and frustration you save on fitting are just unbelievable.
The pattern drafting itself is not any longer or more cumbersome then with any “conventional” method, especially if you employ help of, for example, Excel, and can be programmed into any patternmaking CAD system that have such capabilities.
Below are pictures of some of that “weird” measurments:
http://www.season.ru/img/sovety/merki/diam_t.jpg
http://www.season.ru/img/sovety/merki/diam_b.jpg
http://www.season.ru/img/sovety/merki/px.jpg
http://www.season.ru/img/sovety/merki/bx.jpg
http://www.season.ru/img/sovety/merki/zx.jpg
I’m not sure whether this is an appropriate place to discuss patternmaking for an individual, and apologise in advance if it is not.
November 16th, 2006
12:06 PM
Like Marie I have spent all this time thinking the bulge or bad fit at the crotch was my fault too. I’m really short so I have a hard enough time with jeans as it is. But this has freed me from blaming a blameless body part. Thank you!
April 28th, 2007
8:14 AM
To the camel toe, and wong, I would add the crotch curtians. On sizes 16 and up you will find lovely vertical pleating from knees or ankles pointing directly at the crotch. This effect is accentuated by the masses of extra fabric at the hips. I think(correct me if I am wrong)this is because the grading in larger sizes does not take into account that the front to back depth of the body increases in a greater proportion than the overall hip measurement increases. More space needed in the horizontal portion of the crotch curve, without lengthening the overall rise. It throws off the hang of the pantlegs, giving the “yech” silouette. Even wider leg pants can give the ice cream cone silouette if the pantlegs are forced to rotated toward the crotch.
April 30th, 2007
12:29 AM
* sigh *
Reading you always makes me wish I’d :
a) taken home ec in school so I could sew clothes and not just art projects, or
b) the time to learn how to sew now.
I’m always having this camel toe problem. Thank god I love dresses.
April 30th, 2007
12:54 AM
You are so right – I am 5′2″, and have been sewing for the last 25 years, and have finally hit the jackpot in terms of a pants patterns – a Burda petite (yes, I did some minor adjustments!). Burda do seem to be more uncompromising in terms of fit than other patterns.
I would recommend to short people like me that they use specialised petite patterns, and avoid the issues you’ve identified – the crotch seams on standard patterns just don’t work for shorter women, not mention the knees etc etc …
Thank you for the great article,
July 14th, 2007
5:05 PM
this is probably dumb, but is there no way to tell when you’re at the store buying something whether it doesn’t fit properly or one of these problems you’re talking about?? I realize this doesn’t have anything to do with making a garment from a pattern, but I had to ask.
July 3rd, 2008
11:18 AM
I have a few pairs of jeans that I have held onto because I love the fit everywhere EXCEPT the crotch
It is harder for me to find jeans with my inseam measurements, so I was keeping them in hopes that one day, some genius would come along who knew how to fix the camel toe. 
I am a newer sewer, (without the $ to pay for tailoring)and I was wondering if it was possible to fix jeans that are already made?? If so, could you possibly post some basic pointers, or some links that would be helpful??
Thank You!!!
Kris
July 17th, 2008
8:09 PM
Personally, I like the Camel Toe (CT).
You don’t see them happening nearly as much as you used to.
But I am sorry for the ladies who don’t want that kind of thing.
Try Lands’ End. I think they make great quality jeans at a good price. They fit and wear like old fashioned jeans.
And I’m pretty certain you can get custom inseam measurements and stuff like that. Or at least talk to a living person about it.
Give them a shot.
September 18th, 2008
3:41 AM
Hi Kathleen,
I have enjoyed your explanation of CTs. What about in the back? The pants cleave snugly between the buttocks, causing a bit of discomfort (not necessarily physically but because of perceived immodesty) and there is plenty of fabric between the offending seam and the side seam. What would be the fix for that besides a gusset? Is the back seam too short?
Thanks.
Rose Marie
PS I sent you a check earlier this year and it has not been cashed. I would like to donate to you to keep your blog going.
October 9th, 2008
8:35 AM
[...] Kathleen at Fashion Incubator, for example, has two extremely interesting articles which explain why your trousers don’t fit. [...]
November 3rd, 2008
4:26 PM
Here is the answer to my curve/shape question. It is in the bend that good fit can be found. Many thanks!
November 6th, 2008
8:49 PM
I have read several of the many, MANY pants fitting books out there, and none of them explained this problem well. You actually explained it in a way that I can manage and fix! Now I can perfect a pattern and break into the good part of my pants fabric stash
November 6th, 2008
9:41 PM
You should really consider why you use the name “Wong” , I personally find it offensive. I am of Chinese descent and this is my married name.
Are you pointing the mfgs overseas that are making millions of dollars and taking away
patternmaking jobs here in the US? Well, in that case you are probably correct…. but Wong is wrong.
November 7th, 2008
7:29 AM
Karen, I submit that when using a short euphemism for the male protrusion the alternatives to offending someone are to confuse or annoy them.
Some non-offensive alternatives that would be confusing: “Be sure to avoid the Unit when drafting pants!” “We can clearly see that this causes Junk to accumulate.” Huh?
Others would be annoying: “Be careful not to create a weewee.” What is this, kindergarten? Incidentally, I’m not sure whether peepee would fit in this category or the offensive-to-Asians category.
So, what we’re left with is the fact that all of the alternatives are probably offensive. Wang? Not only is there a computer company by that name, it is probably also offensive to Asians. Dong? Ditto, not to mention the reference to Long Duk of 16 Candles fame. Several people, notably former Congressmen by the name of Armey or former Clinton polster Morris, might take exception to the use of their first name. Likewise, Johnson, rooster (the other word), purple headed womb broom, and so on.
So perhaps you should embrace the Wong, such as it is.
August 1st, 2009
11:31 PM
I definitely have the camel toe and wong issues. Plus a little bunching in the top back & front center waist. I’ve been trying to make a pair of short shorts with a 3″ inseam, close but not tight around body with a looser flare leg and everything points to the crotch. How can I improve the pattern before cutting my next pair of shorts. I’ve been using the Kwik Sew patterns for bikinis and shorts and it seems they all have the same camel toe “feature”. I’m having a hard time seeing /reading the illustration, poor eyes I suppose. So, how can I fix it on the tissue pattern, the designs are cute but the camel toe and wong have got to go. Especially since I intend on attaching a powernet lined panty. I for sure don’t want multiple layers of camel toe and wong.
August 11th, 2009
7:30 AM
Great article, thanks. RoseMarie, I would assume that the same thing as the CT is going on at the back there – the crotch curve is too short and so the pants are forced in between the cheeks. The reason the crotch curve is too short is because too much fabric exists at the centre back – causing a tighter shorter curve. That fabric belongs closer to the hip. I try to get a crotch curve shape on paper that looks like the ideal shape that your pants would make from centre front to centre back when worn – which will differ with different styles, and skim the front and back nicely, not cut in.
Eric H – when someone non-white speaks up about racism towards their race, it is in my experience that almost always they have a valid complaint, so try to listen. Wong has a history of being used as a racist epithet (used in a speech by a former prime minister in my country actually) and I personally wouldn’t have used it as Kathleen has done here, as connotations still linger of cheap-and-dodgy-and-funny-and-asian. There are a million other terms one could use, and no, you won’t offend someone with most of them.
August 11th, 2009
7:47 AM
Kite: Fwiw, I intended to change this, hesitation stymied by lack of a semantic substitute. Until others mentioned it, I had not known it was used as a pejorative. I don’t know where or when I picked up this term but it was well before my majority.
Re: non-whites speaking up about racism; this blogger illustrates comparatives (imo) that I would hope others agree provides useful context.
October 26th, 2009
2:15 PM
Just happened upon this website while looking for instructions about sewing in a lapped zipper… I’m an amateur home-sewer.
NOW I understand why my 7-year-old complains about her pants always giving her a ‘wedgie’ as we call it! I just thought they were too low-cut (don’t get me started on why they make LOW-CUT pants for the 5-10 year-old set!!!!) – but it’s the SHAPE and OVERALL LENGTH of the crotch seam that’s important. Since I have to hem all her pants up 6 inches anyway, now I can look for one with a better cut, regardless of length. THANK YOU!
I would love to see instructions on how to measure and hem pants to the correct length. I’ve been doing it by my own trial-and error, but would like to see how to do it properly! As someone else commented, I wish my home ec class had taught me some of these things!