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	<title>Comments on: Homage or Plagiarism?</title>
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	<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/</link>
	<description>How to start a clothing line or run the one you have, better.</description>
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		<title>By: Homage or plagiarism pt.2</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-14834</link>
		<dc:creator>Homage or plagiarism pt.2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 02:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-14834</guid>
		<description>[...] whole matter of the resurgence of East West Musical Company jackets has grown legs. Since I wrote my entry various sources are decrying Balenciaga designer Nicolas Ghesquière for his recent rendition of an [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] whole matter of the resurgence of East West Musical Company jackets has grown legs. Since I wrote my entry various sources are decrying Balenciaga designer Nicolas Ghesquière for his recent rendition of an [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Walters</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-14820</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Walters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-14820</guid>
		<description>Hello All-

Our companies founder and designer Romulus Von Stetzelberger is a close friend of the founder of East West and was formally given permissions to &quot;carry the flame&quot; by Norman Stubbs. 

Feel free to read more of the history and check out our website for East West here..

http://www.eastwestmusicalinstrumentsco.com/history.html

Take care, 
Joe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello All-</p>
<p>Our companies founder and designer Romulus Von Stetzelberger is a close friend of the founder of East West and was formally given permissions to &#8220;carry the flame&#8221; by Norman Stubbs. </p>
<p>Feel free to read more of the history and check out our website for East West here..</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eastwestmusicalinstrumentsco.com/history.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eastwestmusicalinstrumentsco.com/history.html</a></p>
<p>Take care,<br />
Joe</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa B. in Portland</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-14124</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa B. in Portland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-14124</guid>
		<description>Those of us who are in re-enactment groups (they range from ancient Rome to Civil War and probably beyond) and who make and buy historical costumes for whatever reason (fun or educational or ?) always copy from pictures and extant clothing of the time period in question.  Many people want something as authentic as possible.  In this case, I don&#039;t think exactly copying a garment or copying it but using a different color and sleeves/bodice/skirt/whatever from different pictures is unethical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those of us who are in re-enactment groups (they range from ancient Rome to Civil War and probably beyond) and who make and buy historical costumes for whatever reason (fun or educational or ?) always copy from pictures and extant clothing of the time period in question.  Many people want something as authentic as possible.  In this case, I don&#8217;t think exactly copying a garment or copying it but using a different color and sleeves/bodice/skirt/whatever from different pictures is unethical.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa DOWNTOWN JOEY</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-14090</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa DOWNTOWN JOEY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-14090</guid>
		<description>Finally posted my pics of my East-West leather jacket on my blog:

http://thedomesticdiva.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/designing-a-christening-gown-finding-a-treasure-and-happy-birthday-to-me/

With friendship,
Lisa</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally posted my pics of my East-West leather jacket on my blog:</p>
<p><a href="http://thedomesticdiva.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/designing-a-christening-gown-finding-a-treasure-and-happy-birthday-to-me/" rel="nofollow">http://thedomesticdiva.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/designing-a-christening-gown-finding-a-treasure-and-happy-birthday-to-me/</a></p>
<p>With friendship,<br />
Lisa</p>
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		<title>By: Nina</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-14009</link>
		<dc:creator>Nina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 15:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-14009</guid>
		<description>The legal threshold for copying is &quot;confusingly similar.&quot;  In other words, will a reasonable person think your copy is made by the original company?  That would be infringing (or diluting) the original company&#039;s brand.  

The problem with trying to pay royalties to a company that is long gone is to whom do you send the money?  Legally, a company is a separate entity.  Do you pay the ex-president?  The designer?  You would have to pay the person to whom the design is registered, which brings us to the Design Piracy Prohibition Act.

This sort of reminds me of an article I read recently.  The song &quot;Louie Louie&quot; is played several times, every single day, on radio stations across the US.  The writer gets five-digit royalty checks every month; the singer gets nothing.  I don&#039;t think that fits with most people&#039;s definition of &quot;fairness,&quot; which is usually the alleged reason for creating these types of laws.

Dave is right; this will be a litigation nightmare!  Ironically, it will be the bigger names---the very ones that are pushing this idiotic legislation---that will get burned; attorneys (and the media) will go where the money is.  It will be interesting on two levels for me (as a legal assistant in real life and a wanna-be DE).  However, the entertainment industry has already been dealing with this for quite some time, so we can sort of predict how this will play out.

IMHO, any attempt to stop several people from having the same idea at the same time is going to end in ridiculousness; it&#039;s like trying to trace the origin of an urban legend.

PS  Summer, I hope you&#039;re going to slaughter those idiots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The legal threshold for copying is &#8220;confusingly similar.&#8221;  In other words, will a reasonable person think your copy is made by the original company?  That would be infringing (or diluting) the original company&#8217;s brand.  </p>
<p>The problem with trying to pay royalties to a company that is long gone is to whom do you send the money?  Legally, a company is a separate entity.  Do you pay the ex-president?  The designer?  You would have to pay the person to whom the design is registered, which brings us to the Design Piracy Prohibition Act.</p>
<p>This sort of reminds me of an article I read recently.  The song &#8220;Louie Louie&#8221; is played several times, every single day, on radio stations across the US.  The writer gets five-digit royalty checks every month; the singer gets nothing.  I don&#8217;t think that fits with most people&#8217;s definition of &#8220;fairness,&#8221; which is usually the alleged reason for creating these types of laws.</p>
<p>Dave is right; this will be a litigation nightmare!  Ironically, it will be the bigger names&#8212;the very ones that are pushing this idiotic legislation&#8212;that will get burned; attorneys (and the media) will go where the money is.  It will be interesting on two levels for me (as a legal assistant in real life and a wanna-be DE).  However, the entertainment industry has already been dealing with this for quite some time, so we can sort of predict how this will play out.</p>
<p>IMHO, any attempt to stop several people from having the same idea at the same time is going to end in ridiculousness; it&#8217;s like trying to trace the origin of an urban legend.</p>
<p>PS  Summer, I hope you&#8217;re going to slaughter those idiots.</p>
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		<title>By: Renee</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-14004</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 14:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-14004</guid>
		<description>What a fabulous debate! Have to say, I think the example of the new-taken-from-vintage should be paying royalties to the former manufacturers if possible, because really it is still theft. That brings it back to ethics, doesn&#039;t it? Because if I were the manufacturer looking to bring that jacket to market, I would be trying to get the permission of the original manufacturer ahead of time. If I failed to find the owners to procure their permission, however, I would likely still produce the style if my market research indicated it would be sufficiently profitable to do so, and set aside a percentage of the product&#039;s revenue to cover back royalties just in case they eventually found me instead of the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a fabulous debate! Have to say, I think the example of the new-taken-from-vintage should be paying royalties to the former manufacturers if possible, because really it is still theft. That brings it back to ethics, doesn&#8217;t it? Because if I were the manufacturer looking to bring that jacket to market, I would be trying to get the permission of the original manufacturer ahead of time. If I failed to find the owners to procure their permission, however, I would likely still produce the style if my market research indicated it would be sufficiently profitable to do so, and set aside a percentage of the product&#8217;s revenue to cover back royalties just in case they eventually found me instead of the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-13979</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 01:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-13979</guid>
		<description>Inspiration not duplication ! On one hand I think there are items that are universal -- jeans, for example. However -- it is the particulars of how a company&#039;s pattern fits, the unique construction details, embellishment, finishing, the quality and particulars of material used to make that item that distinguish a design. I think the problem begins when individual or company &quot;B&quot; shamelessly mines an existing item (lets say pioneered and sold by designer &quot;Z&quot;)and represents it as their own. This can become a real shades of grey argument. Where does inspiration end and replication begin ? At 50% ? 51% ? On one hand I don&#039;t think that anyone could be angry that many companies are producing jeans made from blue denim, with two legs and a fly opening -- these are givens (though perhaps Levi Strauss was incensed when others began imitating and selling their version of his first product). 

I think this area can get even murkier when we are talking about an item that is a &quot;homage&quot; or a &quot;historical reproduction&quot;. If the company that made the original item is out of business, is it acceptable to make a 100% reproduction ? Is it acceptable if this is represented as a reproduction, and credited to the original (defunct) maker ? If it is plausible, should the original designer be tracked down and offered a share of the ?royalties?or licensing ? Is the replication an homage with intent(ie as a strong reference to a well known original item of clothing or overall look or work of art)? I think that EastWest Parrot jacket shown above is a interesting example to argue about. In this design I see late Victorian/Art Nouveau elements that may have been taken from wallpaper or a poster (or something else). EastWest took those elements and reinterpreted the swirling lines and use of color into a complex and flattering jacket. I think that is really great ! I think that is the way that interesting design works -- it takes you further down the line and makes something engaging. But what if designer &quot;B&quot; saw this jacket(designer &quot;B&quot;, who is operating in the same time frame/same market), and decided to make their own &quot;version&quot;, meaning that it was identical except that a couple of minor design elements were omitted, or that it was identical except in a different color ? Is this ethical ? If this person or company has the skills/labor to draft the pattern without losing the distinctive details, and can have it produced in a professional manner doesn&#039;t it beg the question why they can&#039;t/won&#039;t hire a designer to DESIGN as opposed to imitate ? This is the slippery slope of the endless cheapening of design -- like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy starts to lose detail and focus and pretty soon it&#039;s hard to tell what it started out as. The real sin is that it makes the world of people wearing clothes look uninteresting, by the lack of originality and diversity !

 I think existing items of clothing can be very inspirational, or educational, and are excellent tools for learning and analysis -- but I also think careful and individual concern for design integrity should be examined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Inspiration not duplication ! On one hand I think there are items that are universal &#8212; jeans, for example. However &#8212; it is the particulars of how a company&#8217;s pattern fits, the unique construction details, embellishment, finishing, the quality and particulars of material used to make that item that distinguish a design. I think the problem begins when individual or company &#8220;B&#8221; shamelessly mines an existing item (lets say pioneered and sold by designer &#8220;Z&#8221;)and represents it as their own. This can become a real shades of grey argument. Where does inspiration end and replication begin ? At 50% ? 51% ? On one hand I don&#8217;t think that anyone could be angry that many companies are producing jeans made from blue denim, with two legs and a fly opening &#8212; these are givens (though perhaps Levi Strauss was incensed when others began imitating and selling their version of his first product). </p>
<p>I think this area can get even murkier when we are talking about an item that is a &#8220;homage&#8221; or a &#8220;historical reproduction&#8221;. If the company that made the original item is out of business, is it acceptable to make a 100% reproduction ? Is it acceptable if this is represented as a reproduction, and credited to the original (defunct) maker ? If it is plausible, should the original designer be tracked down and offered a share of the ?royalties?or licensing ? Is the replication an homage with intent(ie as a strong reference to a well known original item of clothing or overall look or work of art)? I think that EastWest Parrot jacket shown above is a interesting example to argue about. In this design I see late Victorian/Art Nouveau elements that may have been taken from wallpaper or a poster (or something else). EastWest took those elements and reinterpreted the swirling lines and use of color into a complex and flattering jacket. I think that is really great ! I think that is the way that interesting design works &#8212; it takes you further down the line and makes something engaging. But what if designer &#8220;B&#8221; saw this jacket(designer &#8220;B&#8221;, who is operating in the same time frame/same market), and decided to make their own &#8220;version&#8221;, meaning that it was identical except that a couple of minor design elements were omitted, or that it was identical except in a different color ? Is this ethical ? If this person or company has the skills/labor to draft the pattern without losing the distinctive details, and can have it produced in a professional manner doesn&#8217;t it beg the question why they can&#8217;t/won&#8217;t hire a designer to DESIGN as opposed to imitate ? This is the slippery slope of the endless cheapening of design &#8212; like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy starts to lose detail and focus and pretty soon it&#8217;s hard to tell what it started out as. The real sin is that it makes the world of people wearing clothes look uninteresting, by the lack of originality and diversity !</p>
<p> I think existing items of clothing can be very inspirational, or educational, and are excellent tools for learning and analysis &#8212; but I also think careful and individual concern for design integrity should be examined.</p>
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		<title>By: Denise S</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-13977</link>
		<dc:creator>Denise S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 23:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-13977</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;m just preaching to the choir: in this case it&#039;s right to give credit where credit it due. And, something this unique is worthy of homage. In cases where someone is blatantly knocking off a currently hot item and reaping the profits rather than the originator is when it&#039;s unfair, frustrating, and blood-boiling. It&#039;s an interesting debate in this digital age where it&#039;s so easy to copy and paste electronic media; something that distributors are having difficulty getting a handle on, but it&#039;s also creating new methods of distribution (which in the past 30 years have been only relegated to a handful of conglomerates). 

I think digital media has also given us a culture of copy and paste, creating new interpretations, like mash-ups and so on. I think of the artist Chuck Close. It&#039;s amazing to me how powerful different presentations and representations of portraits can be. Plus, multimedia software has given many, many more people access to developing all kinds of media; however, good, bad or ugly. I think fashion follows suit with unique prints and fabrics to cheap, disposable clothing. 

On that note, like the Matisse inspired pillows--they were good, not bad or ugly. Of course, no one thinks it&#039;s Matisse and it doesn&#039;t credit Matisse, but those likely to purchase something like this would buy it because it&#039;s inspired by the artist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;m just preaching to the choir: in this case it&#8217;s right to give credit where credit it due. And, something this unique is worthy of homage. In cases where someone is blatantly knocking off a currently hot item and reaping the profits rather than the originator is when it&#8217;s unfair, frustrating, and blood-boiling. It&#8217;s an interesting debate in this digital age where it&#8217;s so easy to copy and paste electronic media; something that distributors are having difficulty getting a handle on, but it&#8217;s also creating new methods of distribution (which in the past 30 years have been only relegated to a handful of conglomerates). </p>
<p>I think digital media has also given us a culture of copy and paste, creating new interpretations, like mash-ups and so on. I think of the artist Chuck Close. It&#8217;s amazing to me how powerful different presentations and representations of portraits can be. Plus, multimedia software has given many, many more people access to developing all kinds of media; however, good, bad or ugly. I think fashion follows suit with unique prints and fabrics to cheap, disposable clothing. </p>
<p>On that note, like the Matisse inspired pillows&#8211;they were good, not bad or ugly. Of course, no one thinks it&#8217;s Matisse and it doesn&#8217;t credit Matisse, but those likely to purchase something like this would buy it because it&#8217;s inspired by the artist.</p>
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		<title>By: Alicia Isdes</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-13976</link>
		<dc:creator>Alicia Isdes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 23:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-13976</guid>
		<description>I must respectfully agree that imitation is integral to human creativity. And even when you think you are doing something unique you may well end up with something very, very similar to another product or craft or song or whatever! Our culture seems so addicted to innovation, having something new, unique, individual, and people can get so emotionally invested in &#039;their&#039; creations without respect to the influences and classics that are just part of the lexicon of today.  It is nearly impossible to create something totally &#039;new&#039;. If you did, it&#039;d go in a hi-fashion magazine and then nobody would actually wear it, it&#039;d be too weird. Of course, I&#039;m of the gen x and I pirate others&#039;s intellectual property all the time, thru music, videos, free ideas on the internet, etc.  If you are so worried about someone pirating your ideas you have to stay 2 steps ahead of them in research &amp; development of new styles, or just not worry about being one of the crowd. 

 Maybe it&#039;s not about the clothes or the fashion or the product itself- some of my favorite fashion lines get it right but are supporting a &#039;lifestyle&#039; brand or sponsoring a lifestyle for people- such as young surfers or skaters or musicians or maybe just for the d/e themselves! Really, people buy stuff that makes them feel good whether its a rip-off or a knock-off or totally original.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must respectfully agree that imitation is integral to human creativity. And even when you think you are doing something unique you may well end up with something very, very similar to another product or craft or song or whatever! Our culture seems so addicted to innovation, having something new, unique, individual, and people can get so emotionally invested in &#8216;their&#8217; creations without respect to the influences and classics that are just part of the lexicon of today.  It is nearly impossible to create something totally &#8216;new&#8217;. If you did, it&#8217;d go in a hi-fashion magazine and then nobody would actually wear it, it&#8217;d be too weird. Of course, I&#8217;m of the gen x and I pirate others&#8217;s intellectual property all the time, thru music, videos, free ideas on the internet, etc.  If you are so worried about someone pirating your ideas you have to stay 2 steps ahead of them in research &amp; development of new styles, or just not worry about being one of the crowd. </p>
<p> Maybe it&#8217;s not about the clothes or the fashion or the product itself- some of my favorite fashion lines get it right but are supporting a &#8216;lifestyle&#8217; brand or sponsoring a lifestyle for people- such as young surfers or skaters or musicians or maybe just for the d/e themselves! Really, people buy stuff that makes them feel good whether its a rip-off or a knock-off or totally original.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/homage-or-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-13972</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 15:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/?p=3979#comment-13972</guid>
		<description>You know, I&#039;m doing a lot of children&#039;s playwear (not the WOTS kind, but pretty straightforward designs) and maybe this is a dumb question, but how much parallel design is imitation, and how much is &quot;form follows function&quot;?  And how are those going to be teased out with design piracy laws where decisions are not made by people who know clothes?   I love designing kids&#039; clothes, and I usually feel like I&#039;m designing them in a vacuum, but when I go out and see similar things walking around, I know I didn&#039;t &quot;copy&quot; them, and in all likelihood, they didn&#039;t &quot;copy&quot; mine, we just solved parallel riddles in parallel ways, using a similar knowledge base.  

I know this doesn&#039;t apply to the canal street knockoff trade, but aren&#039;t logos/brand-identifying marks already protected?  And when you take something apart seam-for-seam, wouldn&#039;t a direct ruboff be relatively easy to identify and fight over--like the Darwin/Wallace debate?  Anything other than that might reasonably (legally, anyway, if not from the original designer&#039;s point of view) be said to be a &quot;riff&quot; rather than a &quot;repeat&quot;.  

Is all this beside the point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I&#8217;m doing a lot of children&#8217;s playwear (not the WOTS kind, but pretty straightforward designs) and maybe this is a dumb question, but how much parallel design is imitation, and how much is &#8220;form follows function&#8221;?  And how are those going to be teased out with design piracy laws where decisions are not made by people who know clothes?   I love designing kids&#8217; clothes, and I usually feel like I&#8217;m designing them in a vacuum, but when I go out and see similar things walking around, I know I didn&#8217;t &#8220;copy&#8221; them, and in all likelihood, they didn&#8217;t &#8220;copy&#8221; mine, we just solved parallel riddles in parallel ways, using a similar knowledge base.  </p>
<p>I know this doesn&#8217;t apply to the canal street knockoff trade, but aren&#8217;t logos/brand-identifying marks already protected?  And when you take something apart seam-for-seam, wouldn&#8217;t a direct ruboff be relatively easy to identify and fight over&#8211;like the Darwin/Wallace debate?  Anything other than that might reasonably (legally, anyway, if not from the original designer&#8217;s point of view) be said to be a &#8220;riff&#8221; rather than a &#8220;repeat&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Is all this beside the point?</p>
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