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	<title>Comments on: Organic vs sustainability</title>
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	<description>How to start a clothing line or run the one you have, better.</description>
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		<title>By: Jennie Moon</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-12676</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennie Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-12676</guid>
		<description>I find this argument very interesting especially since I am a manufacturer or children&#039;s clothing in Australia. e don&#039;t use Organic cotton for everything however if the price is reasonable and the source of cotton good we will buy it. In Australia we have absolutely no water so growing organic cotton is simply not viable. I am interested in using Organic Cotton but I am concerned about how buying the fabric from India and importing it into Australia effect&#039;s the environment also. What is best buying fabric from India and shipping it such a long distance or using locally made fabric and making locally to reduce how my business effects the world?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this argument very interesting especially since I am a manufacturer or children&#8217;s clothing in Australia. e don&#8217;t use Organic cotton for everything however if the price is reasonable and the source of cotton good we will buy it. In Australia we have absolutely no water so growing organic cotton is simply not viable. I am interested in using Organic Cotton but I am concerned about how buying the fabric from India and importing it into Australia effect&#8217;s the environment also. What is best buying fabric from India and shipping it such a long distance or using locally made fabric and making locally to reduce how my business effects the world?</p>
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		<title>By: MW</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6019</link>
		<dc:creator>MW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 03:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6019</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;According to the website, only .09 ounces pesticides are applied per pound of cotton produced and that is dropping dramatically in the US&lt;/i&gt;

I think it becomes easy for organizations to look at things from a US point of view. Usually, when studies like that are compiled, it takes organizations that are large enough to report and participate in the study. Farming, in many countries, is still a very old school process and while I am sure that on a global level the overall amount of pesticides is lower than it has been, that doesn&#039;t mean that in some areas the amount is still alarmingly high. Especially in countries that don&#039;t have a comparable level of environmental regulation that we have here.

I also wanted to point out that Vesta&#039;s link says that CERTIFIED organic cotton is 0.1% of cotton production, while Cotton Inc says organic cottin is 0.1%, maybe that also accounts for a big difference in what is marketed as organic and the numbers given. I&#039;m sure that there&#039;s much more organic cotton produced, but not certified.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>According to the website, only .09 ounces pesticides are applied per pound of cotton produced and that is dropping dramatically in the US</i></p>
<p>I think it becomes easy for organizations to look at things from a US point of view. Usually, when studies like that are compiled, it takes organizations that are large enough to report and participate in the study. Farming, in many countries, is still a very old school process and while I am sure that on a global level the overall amount of pesticides is lower than it has been, that doesn&#8217;t mean that in some areas the amount is still alarmingly high. Especially in countries that don&#8217;t have a comparable level of environmental regulation that we have here.</p>
<p>I also wanted to point out that Vesta&#8217;s link says that CERTIFIED organic cotton is 0.1% of cotton production, while Cotton Inc says organic cottin is 0.1%, maybe that also accounts for a big difference in what is marketed as organic and the numbers given. I&#8217;m sure that there&#8217;s much more organic cotton produced, but not certified.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6018</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6018</guid>
		<description>Interesting conversation...I pretty much avoid organics as much as anything else...I don&#039;t buy something &quot;just&quot; because it&#039;s labeled organic. Some of the organic veggies in the market look gross so I go with the regular ones and figure life goes on.

The issue of eco-friendly doesn&#039;t apply just to food or clothing though...even jewelers are subject to questions. Using coral in jewelry can be tricky if you aren&#039;t sure of your sources. Or mined stones even. But mostly people seem concerned about things like pearls and coral where an &quot;animal&quot; is involved (although pardon me if I don&#039;t consider an oyster an animal...it&#039;s food!). :)

But it&#039;s still a fascinating conversation.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting conversation&#8230;I pretty much avoid organics as much as anything else&#8230;I don&#8217;t buy something &#8220;just&#8221; because it&#8217;s labeled organic. Some of the organic veggies in the market look gross so I go with the regular ones and figure life goes on.</p>
<p>The issue of eco-friendly doesn&#8217;t apply just to food or clothing though&#8230;even jewelers are subject to questions. Using coral in jewelry can be tricky if you aren&#8217;t sure of your sources. Or mined stones even. But mostly people seem concerned about things like pearls and coral where an &#8220;animal&#8221; is involved (although pardon me if I don&#8217;t consider an oyster an animal&#8230;it&#8217;s food!). <img src='http://www.fashion-incubator.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But it&#8217;s still a fascinating conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jess</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6017</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6017</guid>
		<description>&quot;I&#039;ve seen my aunt and uncle use pesticides so strong that it would knock birds and snakes on their feet in an instant.&quot;

Snakes have feet? hehe
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I&#8217;ve seen my aunt and uncle use pesticides so strong that it would knock birds and snakes on their feet in an instant.&#8221;</p>
<p>Snakes have feet? hehe</p>
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		<title>By: Trish</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6016</link>
		<dc:creator>Trish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6016</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting thread and I wanted to share the newest email from The Color Association...Making Green The New Black... it goes on to say, &quot;Green design is an overriding trend in all markets as more and more people become aware of environmental concerns. Some designers are taking a fresh approach towards creating sustainable products by using ordinary materials in unusual ways. As green design grows, it will eventually become not just a niche market, but a lifestyle where everyday products blend the eco-conscious with the style-conscious, shedding the tree-hugger stereotypes typically associated with “going green”. &quot;

The Color Association [caus@colorassociation.com]
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting thread and I wanted to share the newest email from The Color Association&#8230;Making Green The New Black&#8230; it goes on to say, &#8220;Green design is an overriding trend in all markets as more and more people become aware of environmental concerns. Some designers are taking a fresh approach towards creating sustainable products by using ordinary materials in unusual ways. As green design grows, it will eventually become not just a niche market, but a lifestyle where everyday products blend the eco-conscious with the style-conscious, shedding the tree-hugger stereotypes typically associated with “going green”. &#8221;</p>
<p>The Color Association [caus@colorassociation.com]</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6015</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6015</guid>
		<description>I just ran across this fine sounding statement made by Rabobank on it&#039;s policy to further the idea of &quot;sustainability&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1841440.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1841440.htm&lt;/a&gt;

But as we have seen with World Bank lending policies there is often a backlash of public opinion and a needed refinement of the standards applied in pursuing the stated goal.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just ran across this fine sounding statement made by Rabobank on it&#8217;s policy to further the idea of &#8220;sustainability&#8221; <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1841440.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1841440.htm</a></p>
<p>But as we have seen with World Bank lending policies there is often a backlash of public opinion and a needed refinement of the standards applied in pursuing the stated goal.</p>
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		<title>By: Vesta</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6014</link>
		<dc:creator>Vesta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6014</guid>
		<description>First, the US is certainly not the only country producing certified organic cotton. We are working with people in India who are growing it, certified by Skal:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.skal.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.skal.com/&lt;/a&gt;
So it&#039;s hard to compare what&#039;s appearing on the shelves to what&#039;s being grown in the US alone. Any big company that is using organic cotton (Patagonia, MEC, even Nike, etc) is getting most of it internationally, anyway.

Second, I&#039;ve heard a figure more like 25% of the pesticides are used on cotton. I&#039;m a tad short on time, but I recommend checking out Organic Exchange for such tidbits of info:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://organicexchange.org/Farm/cotton_facts_intro.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://organicexchange.org/Farm/cotton_facts_intro.htm&lt;/a&gt;
They are an organization targeted specifically at getting people like us to use certified organic cotton. I would maintain that Cotton Inc has very good reasons to convince us that we don&#039;t need to worry about a pesky little thing like pesticide, when choosing to purchase cotton textiles.

Third, while I&#039;m totally on board with organics, I&#039;m here to tell you that organics don&#039;t tell the whole story, which is why we need terms like sustainable. What about recycled polyester? What about hemp, which is generally grown without pesticides? What about the fact that flax is also generally grown without pesticides, but yields very little per acre, compared to hemp, e.g. What about transportation of our products and inputs? All of these things and many, many more factor into what I consider to be sustainability. &quot;Organic&quot; just doens&#039;t even scratch the surface, although it&#039;s an important piece of the puzzle.

Gotta go. But I couldn&#039;t let y&#039;all play fast and loose with my favorite word in the world:
Sustainability!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, the US is certainly not the only country producing certified organic cotton. We are working with people in India who are growing it, certified by Skal:<br />
<a href="http://www.skal.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.skal.com/</a><br />
So it&#8217;s hard to compare what&#8217;s appearing on the shelves to what&#8217;s being grown in the US alone. Any big company that is using organic cotton (Patagonia, MEC, even Nike, etc) is getting most of it internationally, anyway.</p>
<p>Second, I&#8217;ve heard a figure more like 25% of the pesticides are used on cotton. I&#8217;m a tad short on time, but I recommend checking out Organic Exchange for such tidbits of info:<br />
<a href="http://organicexchange.org/Farm/cotton_facts_intro.htm" rel="nofollow">http://organicexchange.org/Farm/cotton_facts_intro.htm</a><br />
They are an organization targeted specifically at getting people like us to use certified organic cotton. I would maintain that Cotton Inc has very good reasons to convince us that we don&#8217;t need to worry about a pesky little thing like pesticide, when choosing to purchase cotton textiles.</p>
<p>Third, while I&#8217;m totally on board with organics, I&#8217;m here to tell you that organics don&#8217;t tell the whole story, which is why we need terms like sustainable. What about recycled polyester? What about hemp, which is generally grown without pesticides? What about the fact that flax is also generally grown without pesticides, but yields very little per acre, compared to hemp, e.g. What about transportation of our products and inputs? All of these things and many, many more factor into what I consider to be sustainability. &#8220;Organic&#8221; just doens&#8217;t even scratch the surface, although it&#8217;s an important piece of the puzzle.</p>
<p>Gotta go. But I couldn&#8217;t let y&#8217;all play fast and loose with my favorite word in the world:<br />
Sustainability!</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6013</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6013</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jon!  As an early participant in efforts to establish &quot;organic&quot; certification in my state, I can only guess the efforts you have made to bring the process along as far as you have.  I appreciate your input here!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jon!  As an early participant in efforts to establish &#8220;organic&#8221; certification in my state, I can only guess the efforts you have made to bring the process along as far as you have.  I appreciate your input here!</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6012</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6012</guid>
		<description>I have an aunt and uncle that grow sweet potatoes. They told me once a few years ago that they labeled sweet potatoes organic when they were in fact NOT organic. Knowing it was wrong. I was pretty outraged and have doubted the organic label ever since. So your suspicions are correct. Seems to me if it&#039;s happening in sweet potatoes it&#039;s happening in cotton. I&#039;ve seen my aunt and uncle use pesticides so strong that it would knock birds and snakes on their feet in an instant.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an aunt and uncle that grow sweet potatoes. They told me once a few years ago that they labeled sweet potatoes organic when they were in fact NOT organic. Knowing it was wrong. I was pretty outraged and have doubted the organic label ever since. So your suspicions are correct. Seems to me if it&#8217;s happening in sweet potatoes it&#8217;s happening in cotton. I&#8217;ve seen my aunt and uncle use pesticides so strong that it would knock birds and snakes on their feet in an instant.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Cloud</title>
		<link>http://www.fashion-incubator.com/archive/organic_vs_sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-6011</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Cloud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 01:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fashion-incubator.com/2007/02/organic_vs_sustainability/#comment-6011</guid>
		<description>I am proud to say that after 20 years of work, effective Dec. 22, 2006 the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) placed within its regulatory control all organic food products sold internationally (imported and exported) and inter-provincially.  Now, most of the consumers of Canada will be protected from the misuse of the term organic by companies importing or shipping products inter-provincially.  Yet there is much to be done as it is up to the individual provinces to regulate the term organic for foods produced and sold within its borders.  (I have many examples of where fraud is occurring at farmers markets and by local produce stands buying and selling their conventionally grown products as organic.  They can get away with it as long as they sell it in the province of Ontario.  I have even submitted the publications and advertising to the provincial government staff responsible for organic agriculture in Ontario.  The provincial representatives took no action to inform or educate the individuals misusing the term organic.  The Ontario staff has been in active and apparently unconcerned with the fraudulent claims occurring at many farmers markets.  Hopefully, the regulatory controls instituted by the federal government for production, processing and labeling of organic products will shame the provinces in to protecting it citizens and developing or adopting the federal organic standards for intra-provincial trade.

This process has not been easy.  I know this personally as I have been working for nearly 20 years to get the government to adopt and regulate the term organic, organically grown, certified organic, etc.  Part of the task is complete.  We have a number of areas still requiring work: Cosmetics (in my opinion one of the biggest areas of rip off), Intra-Provincial production, processing and labeling, Fiber and Apparel, Lawn Care and Pet Food.

Lets look at fiber and especially cotton.  The production of organic cotton in the US was only started about 10 years ago.  It, like all the other commodities, has been a slow process of converting and educating farmer on real production methods (no more plant, fertilize and spray) involving crop rotations and soil building.  Yet, we have passed the 6,000 acres mark.  (I started in organic agriculture 35 years ago when the total of all crops raised organically in all of Canada was less than 6,000 acres.)  The industry has grown and come a long way since then.  This growth has come from consumers demanding something better.  The organic industry is driven by the consumer.  We owe the success to you.  Now the organic food is being regulated it is time to look at the “international cotton” crops.  Many third world countries could not afford the pesticides or nitrate fertilizers to produce cotton.  Thus, they have land ready for organic production.  This has occurred in most of the second and third world countries where cotton has historically been produced.  The global acreage under organic cotton production is growing rapidly but no one has a handle on the actual tonnage.  This is potentially a ripe area of “misrepresentation” of the integrity of the product and its organic status.  Most reputable and experienced companies demand proof (organic certificates from known organic certification organization in good standing) from the sellers prior to shipping the fiber or yarns.  Usually, the best known organic certification organizations are from Europe, North America and Japan.  OCIA, of which I was a founder both of the national organization and the international organization is only one of many of the organic certification organizations.  There are approximately 35 organic certification organizations in Canada and all of them are registered and accredited by CFIA.  Let me be clear, THERE ARE HUGE DIFFENECES BETWEEN SUSTAINABLE AND ORGANIC.  Sustainable has become a marketing catch phrase that is not controlled or regulated by government agency.  It means about as much as the word NATURAL.  Until the governments of the world decide they have a primary responsibility to protect its consumers words like sustainable and natural will be used to dupe the consumer and tear their hearts out through their pocket book. Natural and Sustainable have NO PROGRAM OR COMMITMENT TO SOIL BUILDING, PREVENTING ERSION, PREVENTING DESSERTIFICATION, SOLVING GOLBAL WARMING BY ADDING ORGANIC MATTER (carbon) TO THE SOIL, BUILDING WILDLIFE HABITATS IN HEDGEROWS, OR PREVENTING GROUND WATER CONTAMINATION (nitrate fertilizers, and highly soluble phosphate fertilizers). These issued are addressed and each of the above are performed on each organic farm every year as the farmer undergoes organic certification renewal.  The difference between organic and sustainable is huge, all you have to do is ask someone who has spent their life trying to change the way people farm, eat, and what they wear.  The organic industry has worked hard with thousands of volunteers to make sure the consumer understand there are real standards, regulation and requirements before the word organic can be used on labels or advertising claims.

Jon Cloud
The Organic Cotton Company.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am proud to say that after 20 years of work, effective Dec. 22, 2006 the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) placed within its regulatory control all organic food products sold internationally (imported and exported) and inter-provincially.  Now, most of the consumers of Canada will be protected from the misuse of the term organic by companies importing or shipping products inter-provincially.  Yet there is much to be done as it is up to the individual provinces to regulate the term organic for foods produced and sold within its borders.  (I have many examples of where fraud is occurring at farmers markets and by local produce stands buying and selling their conventionally grown products as organic.  They can get away with it as long as they sell it in the province of Ontario.  I have even submitted the publications and advertising to the provincial government staff responsible for organic agriculture in Ontario.  The provincial representatives took no action to inform or educate the individuals misusing the term organic.  The Ontario staff has been in active and apparently unconcerned with the fraudulent claims occurring at many farmers markets.  Hopefully, the regulatory controls instituted by the federal government for production, processing and labeling of organic products will shame the provinces in to protecting it citizens and developing or adopting the federal organic standards for intra-provincial trade.</p>
<p>This process has not been easy.  I know this personally as I have been working for nearly 20 years to get the government to adopt and regulate the term organic, organically grown, certified organic, etc.  Part of the task is complete.  We have a number of areas still requiring work: Cosmetics (in my opinion one of the biggest areas of rip off), Intra-Provincial production, processing and labeling, Fiber and Apparel, Lawn Care and Pet Food.</p>
<p>Lets look at fiber and especially cotton.  The production of organic cotton in the US was only started about 10 years ago.  It, like all the other commodities, has been a slow process of converting and educating farmer on real production methods (no more plant, fertilize and spray) involving crop rotations and soil building.  Yet, we have passed the 6,000 acres mark.  (I started in organic agriculture 35 years ago when the total of all crops raised organically in all of Canada was less than 6,000 acres.)  The industry has grown and come a long way since then.  This growth has come from consumers demanding something better.  The organic industry is driven by the consumer.  We owe the success to you.  Now the organic food is being regulated it is time to look at the “international cotton” crops.  Many third world countries could not afford the pesticides or nitrate fertilizers to produce cotton.  Thus, they have land ready for organic production.  This has occurred in most of the second and third world countries where cotton has historically been produced.  The global acreage under organic cotton production is growing rapidly but no one has a handle on the actual tonnage.  This is potentially a ripe area of “misrepresentation” of the integrity of the product and its organic status.  Most reputable and experienced companies demand proof (organic certificates from known organic certification organization in good standing) from the sellers prior to shipping the fiber or yarns.  Usually, the best known organic certification organizations are from Europe, North America and Japan.  OCIA, of which I was a founder both of the national organization and the international organization is only one of many of the organic certification organizations.  There are approximately 35 organic certification organizations in Canada and all of them are registered and accredited by CFIA.  Let me be clear, THERE ARE HUGE DIFFENECES BETWEEN SUSTAINABLE AND ORGANIC.  Sustainable has become a marketing catch phrase that is not controlled or regulated by government agency.  It means about as much as the word NATURAL.  Until the governments of the world decide they have a primary responsibility to protect its consumers words like sustainable and natural will be used to dupe the consumer and tear their hearts out through their pocket book. Natural and Sustainable have NO PROGRAM OR COMMITMENT TO SOIL BUILDING, PREVENTING ERSION, PREVENTING DESSERTIFICATION, SOLVING GOLBAL WARMING BY ADDING ORGANIC MATTER (carbon) TO THE SOIL, BUILDING WILDLIFE HABITATS IN HEDGEROWS, OR PREVENTING GROUND WATER CONTAMINATION (nitrate fertilizers, and highly soluble phosphate fertilizers). These issued are addressed and each of the above are performed on each organic farm every year as the farmer undergoes organic certification renewal.  The difference between organic and sustainable is huge, all you have to do is ask someone who has spent their life trying to change the way people farm, eat, and what they wear.  The organic industry has worked hard with thousands of volunteers to make sure the consumer understand there are real standards, regulation and requirements before the word organic can be used on labels or advertising claims.</p>
<p>Jon Cloud<br />
The Organic Cotton Company.</p>
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