Fashion-Incubator

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Why? Because it's been five years since I decided to pursue this business of manufacturing a line. And I still don't have a completed product to market. Why? I spent the time and money to study fashion design abroad, then I bought Kathleen's book, then read Maslow, read demographics, retail surveys, branding, lean manufacturing, studied buying habits of my target market, studied fabrics and their properties, studied style and what makes a woman look good, no matter what her body type. Then I've spent the last two years perfecting my patterns and fit (I do this part time). I can't tell you how many prototypes I've made--and they aren't ready to go out into the market yet. But now I've perfected my pants pattern and almost have my knit top blocks done. Since my target market is mid-life women, fit is everything. And so are first impressions. I won't be crap out there just to be "out there." And I've really had to suffer the heat from friends, family and even people on this site. But I will have a quality product and business.

So thanks for the validation. It really made my day.

Unfortunately this inability to listen starts at the design school level. Can't tell you how many times I've been ask my "opinion" on x y or z only to realise that they really wanted an underdeserved compliment instead of the cold truth. Also as an owner of a non fashion related business I find that many students are eager for me to work with them to start a design business. They are all full of "ideas" but no brains. Why? so I can lose my money and do all the work while they play Fashion Designer Barbie?

Hear here!
I admit I loved the ego rush of people asking for my advice but then it was DEMORALIZING. I don\'t want to hear why it won't work when I've been doing it fifteen years.

Kathleen, I bought your book five years ago (up against that ten year bump you described in the book!) and another one a couple of months ago. I wish it was around when I first started. This is the book I would have written. (I'm still learning) Once I controlled my ego and felt really stupid by then too, it was draining. I actually discussed it with my therapist who said I was paying people who weren't listening to me to stroke my own ego.

p.s.
I just hired a new assistant who already had your book! I was so thrilled. Why aren't the schools using it?

DAMN, I Wish I Wrote That

Wheat
currently banned from at least four "designer business groups" for expecting business people to act like they are in business.

In response to a novice asking questions and wanting something at a cheap cost or free, and not thinking that they are going to be also paying for that persons amount of knowledge not just the fact it doesn't take her very long to "knit" a sweater.
I have a good friend who used to teach art history in London for many years. She now is a sweater designer for a global company.
She told me once when someone asks how long it takes her to knit a sweater,
she replies..15 yrs.

Oh, my gosh! I didn't know it really is THAT bad! I'm sorry that these people--and who knows how many others--have to go thru this. I'm sorry that pattern maker decided to stop making patterns.

I'm one of the people who WILL listen and follow advice, even if you make me cry. I'll get over it, see the light, and get with it.

I've been sewing for most of my life and still learn new things. When I was in school, a lot of students had never sewn anything before in their lives. Of course, they had to learn, but it doesn't mean that all of them can really sew now.

Wheat, I wouldn't have banned you. :-)

I am very new to all of this, and I will dare ask a question/make a statement that may ruffle some feathers..here goes...
Karen C., I applaud you for mentioning that you've read a pleothora of books in preparation for entering this business (especially Maslow--I have done the same, but I just inhale knowledge for knowledge's sake and know that it applies everywhere) and have spent time and money on market research, prototyping and the like, but I do have one question: does one TRULY need to spend the money to study abroad? Is that a deal-breaker? I realize you've been doing this part-time for five years, but FIVE YEARS? And in your opinion your designs/prototypes are still not ready? I am in no way questioning the validity of what you are saying, I am simply baffled at why it would take that long. I have yet to read Kathleen's book but it will be the first purchase I make once I get the expendable cash (sidenote: if I don't have the cash for the necessary books I most certainly don't have the cash to start the business--right now I am just devouring as much info as possible) but I have been reading other fashion merchandising texts. Since I've not read the book, I am somewhat concerned about asking ANY questions because I don't know what I don't know. But FIVE YEARS? Yikes! Talk about a wake up call.

Umm...wow. I hope that if I start my own business, that I'll listen and do my research.

You know, I think a good small business management class might do wonders for a lot of individuals looking to launch a business. After taking one, my eyes were opened. There is SO MUCH to learn and do and consider! (Of course, then there's "analysis paralysis", but a clear-headed analysis before jumping headlong is rather important!)

Personally I feel there has to be a balance between the learning and the doing. Too much learning with no doing just results in no doing. After you read, learn, study, and know your market it is time to get into action and do something. You can study a topic forever but if you never get into action you won't find out what the real life situations are. Of course if you can't afford at least one book then you aren't ready to get into the production side of things but don't let these posts scare you from getting into action.

Natasha wrote:
"I just hired a new assistant who already had your book! I was so thrilled. Why aren't the schools using it?"

Kathleen's book was THE required text for my 'collections' class in school. While I myself am not a DE but a custom dressmaker, I found the book very interesting.

Pam, thanks for your comment. I definitely won't let anything scare me from getting into action. I may not be able to get into the production side of things but the library is free...
Do what you can when you can, right?

Dear Elizabeth,

I know you were addressing Karen, but I thought I could shed a bit of light on your question regarding the amount of time it takes to be 'ready'.

I started Georgie World one year ago- but I started my journey in 1994 when I began at Boston University studying costume design. That makes 11 years before I started GW. In that time I graduated college, worked in Hollywood, spent a year at FIDM learning manufacturing, worked for Trina Turk both at her facility as well as her wholesale sales room and then I took a break to have my kids. While my kids were infants I read every business book I could get my hands on- I was constantly learning and dreaming and planning for when I thought my kids were mature enough for me to start a company. I would consider all of those things learning experiences that helped create the foundation of knowledge that I built my business on.

To be perfectly honest, I started a different company- Georgie Inc. before I started Georgie World. It was a company that made boy's baby clothing and I was making my own prints which was unbelievably expensive. After producing my first season of samples I took them to showrooms to see if I could get a sales rep. Everyone said the garments were cute, but they already had a brand that looked too similar. I am serious- I went to 25 showrooms and NONE of them would take me! But they told me they were in desperate need of boy toddler clothing. My kids were getting bigger so I decided to start Georgie World. I listened to what the sales reps were telling me and I kept in contact with the one I liked the best. I would occasionally go and see her and show her my fabrics and drawings and she was very helpful helping me merchandise my initial line. Once the samples were ready she loved them and thus began Georgie World. So you could say even with all that experience I still failed at my first business, but I parlayed the knowledge I acquired from Georgie and then found success (so far) with Georgie World. And by success I mean I have had a positive reaction from buyers. I am not making a dime and frankly, I am still 'losing' money. Most companies don't see profit for THREE YEARS! My goal is to see a profit after year two. (wish me luck 'cause i need it lol)

As for your question about studying abroad- I don't think you need to go to school to become a DE, but I do think if you don't go to school then you have to work in the industry. Working in the industry basically pays you to learn from other people's triumphs and failures. You can see first hand what it takes to run a business.Or you could read K's book. But I still think it is better to get real manufacturing experience.

Wow. Thank you DE, I'm sorry that your experience has soured you to us newbies but I do understand... And I'm also sorry about the pattern maker.

As K can tell you I have been researching, reading and visiting small manufacturers for over a year. In fact, one of my partners is frustrated because she thinks I'm moving too slow -- she knows how to sew but nothing about manufacturing. We constantly clash because she doesn't want to change any of her ways or methods. And even though I bought her K's book, she has yet to read it. Needless to say, we're on the verge of parting ways.

You have struck one of my pet peeves. Years ago I won a fellowship for writing, $5,000. Before that, I'd been a therapist. It never once occurred to me after winning the fellowship, that winning it somehow made me a "writer." I immediately began a ten year process of educating myself. I didn't write anything for the first two years, just attended classes, workshops and read every book about writing at least 4 times.

Fourteen years later and 24 published books under my belt and I still am hesitant to call myself a writer. Yet, I meet people every day, who tell me that they are writers and not only have they not written a thing other than a grocery list, but they hate to read.

I think we will see more of this as times goes on. Just consider this folk. A woman involved with two men, witnesses one man murder the other... before the trial she finds out I'm a published author and phones me to ask me, "Can I hold back some of what I know for my book that I plan to write?"

In today's world, neither experience or education is given much value. Celebrity is everything. And I swear I believe some people are praying for a catastrophe so they can write a book. And being a DE today rings that same bell. Now that folk see celebrities starting up clothing lines they think, "I should do that." It doesn't occur to them that the celebrities have resources to hire the right people to make it work. (sometimes) Instead they just want to "do it." Darn that Nike.

I live in a city I call "the Illusion Dome" Atlanta. I can't tell you how many people here are starting "clothing lines." And when I speak to them, it turns out they are talking to me about t-shirts and caps with a logo on them. The sad part is one day I might see them on CNN discussing their T-shirs and caps as their new clothing line, and laughing at me all the way to the bank. They can't sew, design, don't want to read, believe they don't need advice -- all they need is just will. "Will" never works for drug addicts so I don't expect it to work for me... but... people do believe they can just "do it."

Our company sold our first products after two years of me working on this product, literally day and night. I know that I am still a neophyte. I suffer no delusions. I had wanted to attend TC2's Manufacturing class this fall but couldn't afford it. I am still struggling to learn, take classes online and if I could I would get a job in a manufacturing company but at almost 60 with no real experience that's not likely to happen. So I've been seeking partnerships with folk who know more than I do. And when they tell me something, believe me, I listen.

Because I didn't have manufacturing experience I didn't go into this lightly. It took me almost a year from the time I came up with my product idea before I acted on it. During that time I researched until my eyes burned.

So, don't give up on all of us. The way I see it, some people are just not smart enough to take advice.

I've watched one too many fellow DEs fail as they had no idea what they were getting into. They thought since they could sew, they'd launch a clothing manufacturing business.

Although I've had my small business for a few years now, I've yet to go to market as I wasn't prepared.

I spent countless hours learning as much as I can over the last 2-3 years in hopes of giving myself a good start when I do my offical launch this coming Summer.

Everyday I learn something new! The book and blog has been a main part of my learning experience. Thanks!!!

With friendship,
Lisa

I am a pattern maker, I used to be an events consultant. People do not like to take advice. Even when they pay thousands of dollars for it.

I was hired to analyze an under performing event. I identified that the name of the event was not recognizable to the customers and spent months doing research to come up with names. One of which was chosen by the BOD. One month before the event they switched back to the old name on the advice of their graphic artist.

At least I was paid! But it is very unsatisfying, and just means people are going to do what they are going to do, so be sure to cash the check.

As a not too experienced, Pattern Maker, I don't like to take jobs from "individuals" (as opposed to fulling formed DEs ) as they don't know what they are asking for, and they certainly don't want to spend the money to pay for what its going to take for me to give it to them. Most common request is to draft something from a sketch with out any blocks or any idea of their line's sizing. The result, is when graded, every piece is sized to itself! People don't like to hire me when I point this out. It would help if they read the book.

"I live in a city I call "the Illusion Dome" Atlanta. I can't tell you how many people here are starting "clothing lines." And when I speak to them, it turns out they are talking to me about t-shirts and caps with a logo on them. The sad part is one day I might see them on CNN discussing their T-shirs and caps as their new clothing line, and laughing at me all the way to the bank."

EvelynC547 I have a question for you because the statement I quoted above sort of allows me to segue into something I'd been wondering. How does everyone feel about streetwear lines? For some reason I got the feeling (from reading some of the recaps of folks'excursions to MAGIC) that people view it as like this whole other thing. Believe me, I know there are entirely TOO MANY t-shirt lines and streetwear lines, but there are a few that are quite respectable. But maybe I'm biased--I did grow up in the NYC metro area and that was, in large part, the culture of my school...
As far as ATL being the "illusion dome", I moved down here to Georgia a couple years ago and I think the idea of everyone starting clothing lines that primarily consist of t-shirts and logo caps is a product of the omnipresence HipHop, but I've read about many lines that started with the graphic tees and hoodies and expanded to include other sewn products...
I just want to know what everyone thinks, Thanks!

Since I've not read the book, I am somewhat concerned about asking ANY questions because I don't know what I don't know.

I'm thinking about this. Which questions are acceptable? I think bad ones are questions like "how do I become a freelance fashion designer" posted to an entry describing how to become a freelance fashion designer. I mean, obviously, the person didn't read the entry or follow the first line of advice. Rather, she's iterated what she's already done, thinks that's enough preparation so she just wants to know how to climb the dais, collect the accolades and cash the checks, all without breaking a sweat or investing any further effort.

I think the quality of questions can somehow, be gauged by one's reaction to the answers. One woman recently told me, pertly, that she's been doing just fine so far and what I wanted to ask her (but didn't) is, then why is she asking the most basic questions if she knows it all? She claims she's tried to order the book but the vendor sends emails saying it's been damaged in transit and returns her checks (twice). I wonder what shipper this vendor is using that they can get the product stopped mid-shipment and returned to them? Hmmm. I fill most of the book orders, including all amazon orders and of my vendors (since I distribute my own book), none have (ever) returned a damaged copy so I can only imagine she's making up stories or talking about another book. And a magical vendor. Boy, I'd like to know what shipper I could use to halt delivery on a package already in the works because UPS and USPS will continue processing a damaged empty envelope. No shipper returns product mid stream. So, nobody is dumb, bad questions assume others are too dumb to figure you out -in whatever way. If you're honest and above board, you'll be okay! If you play games and make up stories, people will know. We're not that dumb. Any question this woman asks in the future will be a bad question based on context. Why do people assume another's memory is as tenuous or vicarious as their own?

Going back to reactions to responses, there's no problem with asking for a referral to a contractor or whatever, but if you're declined and pointed to an entry explaining why, one should not be rude and hateful. Many are. You definitely haven't been Elizabeth so I'm not directing this at you. Like I said, it's a bad question if you react badly to the response.

Bad questions are often "simple" questions. One sentence questions like "how to I plan to get my production together in time for delivery"? It takes a book length response to answer that. Again, most people asking those kinds of questions aren't kindly or patient. Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds. Now I tend to ignore them.

Bad questions are questions from people who haven't done any due diligence. They dive bomb the site, used to dive bomb the forum till I closed it off. Many ask questions that have been answered and they'd know if they do a little homework and reading but they don't. They want their answer served up custom and piping hot. Preferably, they want you to email the answer to them directly so they don't have to come back. Hmmm. That sounds selfish so that'd be bad questions.

But FIVE YEARS? Yikes! Talk about a wake up call.

I think it's clear that it's a journey. There's no one day that you wake up and say, "hey, I'm a successful apparel manufacturer!". There's always another level to assume. When do you know you've gotten there? A lot of what Evelyn said in reference to writing also resonated. When do you know you're a writer? Like she said, there are tons of people who don't write a word but call themselves writers. I've shied from the descriptor. I finally decided I had to fess up to being one if I've been making a living at it for several years now. Still, money making can't be the only definition.

I also fret over people who do the analysis by paralysis thing. Too many doing that. But I don't do that. Nope. Not at all. I'm too busy preparing to make a decision to actually make one. I will get a CAD system before December, really I will.

I am a pattern maker, I used to be an events consultant. People do not like to take advice. Even when they pay thousands of dollars for it.

This explains why I wrote a book in the first place. Originally, it gave me the wherewithal to tell people to take a hike. If they weren't going to read it, then I wasnt' going to take their work which would end up saving me tons of time and aggravation and usually money because many on that level tend to stiff you. I appreciated the heads-up. I don't think people get it, still. I wrote the book -not to make money or be famous (ha!) or anything like that- I wrote to SAVE MY money and time. I thought I'd end up with 475 copies of the first 500 printed, collecting dust in my garage. Honestly! That I sold those and went on to sell many more, STILL surprises me. The book, from the get go, was a risk I was willing to take to eliminate people wasting my time or stiffing me. It's been cost effective and far more successful than I could have possibly imagined. Still, my goals haven't changed. I don't want to waste my time on people who won't invest in their own education. Why should I? If they don't want to read it, they can go to someone else's blog or another author and have that person answer their questions. I wish them the best of luck in getting a response or even finding such a blog from another author but just because I'm accessible doesn't mean I owe them anything. Why do they think I owe them something? What have they given me?

And don't get me started on people who have read the book but want me to consult with them to make *their* plan work if it breaks all the rules. There are some people who think they can do whatever they want, and someone can wave a magic wand and make it all happen for them. Often they have money so these are usually the same people who think you can hire 9 women and get a baby in one month. ugh. Maybe I'm dumb or mired but I can only make one way work. That's what I wrote about. I don't have any other tricks up my sleeve. There's no magic there. Just a lot of consistent applied effort and hard work.

Just because someone wears clothing doesn’t mean they can start designing and manufacturing them.

My latest obsession has been recording all the episodes of The Big Idea with Donnie Deustch (CNBC). I find that, because of the length of time I've been an avid follower of entrepreneurs, I recognize many of the companies/people profiled on the show. I've seen four lines that I carry profiled or featured on the show, a few that I buy (personally) and love, and many that I know well but personally have no use for.

Not a single one of these companies was started by someone with apparel manufacturing experience or design experience. Most of the people were not even entrepreneurs at the time they started their companies. One is a phenomenal success, with $150 mil in annual sales (and is a relatively young company), the other is at 50 Mil (a 30 year old company), the rest are at $10 mil and below (young companies).

They didn't know anything about clothing or patterns or manufacturing, but they do have respect for the industry. While they didn't come on F-I and ask "bad questions", most certainly their questions were asked somewhere of someone.

I think sometimes DEs want to make something out to be harder than it is. Keep in mind Kathleen's book is for sewn products, and a lot of people here aren't designing clothing lines, lines for women, lines that need a fit, a look or a concept. A lot of people just kind of have ideas, maybe even one single product, from which they can grow a business. While I'm not trying to diminish the difficulty of creating a line, a lot of people who want to be in this industry, aren't actually creating a clothing line. And yeah, they kinda can get into it just because they wear clothes, because a lot are trying to manufacture something they need or see a need for.

I understand the feeling, the frustration, but I think some of it should be balanced. And quite frankly, many DEs, especially those that went to school for fashion, tend to be severely lacking in business acumen (for the most part, it's just not a strong part of the curriculum). It would be a shame if DEs were met with the same level of frustration when they tried to seek help from accountants, or marketing consultants, or other such people. Then they would say "why do people think that just because they can design clothing that they can run a business?"

Dear Elizabeth,

My daughters are "hip hop," and I do like many of the streetwear lines and hoodies/graphic t's too. I think I was talking about some of the folk who've approached me this year. One in particular had splattered (and I do mean splattered) paint on his own clothing (namebrand someone else's clothing) and was calling that his own "clothing line." One of my daughter's is a visual artists and she hand-paints t-shirts and other clothes, but she doesn't think they are her own "clothing line." Does that help explain what I was saying?

Kathleen, funny, you know I think you are a brilliant author. Enough said.

Miracle, I love your energy. You are always so open, kind and giving. As an obsessive compulsive without medication, I need to be more open too. Thanks for reminding me. Sometimes I am too "rigid" about things, and then someone comes along and gives me a gentle, needed nudge, and I wake up.

Thanks all,
Evelyn

To Elizabeth’s questions:

I’ll leave Karen to respond re: travels abroad. I presume she likes the European aesthetic?

That aside, the product development lifecycle isn’t brief – at least not during the inaugural round. There are certainly methods of trimming time and executing more effectively – which we discuss, here. As one gains momentum and experience, these cycles get tighter.
____________________

A start up needs time to articulate its business objective and the market (or, niche) it will play in – which is the source of frustration for these folks who are asking to bow out. In part, I sympathize. And, in my personal business dealings, I’ve told clients straight-up when they’re not ready to be in business (I’ve done it in the forum, too!) – often unable to collect on invoices for services previously provided, too.

To be frank, this is part of the risk inherent with selling services in the market of micro-business owners. I don’t have an issue with anyone who decides to stop serving a particular market segment – it’s just a business decision. However, I throw out these words of caution: by choosing to not keep some percentage of risk in this segment, the novice DE is left to be preyed upon by bad or ignorant people. The larger picture may result in the DEs imminent failure. But, how does that impact the industry, on the whole? Without fresh blood, it appears to me the industry is poorly fated. Are there potential unexpected results that could be related to this decision? Is the problem so severe and far-reaching that adjusting your risk tolerance to assume a lesser order of magnitude might suffice?

RE: good stitchers as DEs. I see this as a failing in articulating the business objective. If a micro-business were to ask for help writing a plan to become a manufacturer, I’ll ask: “how are you qualified?” I don’t expect to hear: “I sew well.” I expect to hear: “these jeans {sample} cost $3 more to sew than necessary” or “there’s a segment of the ____ market that is underserved”. If one answers they sew well, they’re telling me they should be subcontracting to a CMT house.

RE: streetwear lines. Wow… there’s a loaded question! I think the temperature is different depending who you talk to. There are some designers (and, tailors) I know who scream and hoot that it lacks integrity. There are others who make sage points about over-sized clothing being a drain on resources. In the end, those people’s opinions matter to how they run their lives. When it comes to business, you are best served manufacturing a product you know people will buy (i.e. market research & wanting v. buying).

RE: fashion schools & business. There isn’t a fashion program that I’ve ever seen that teaches anything beyond basic bookkeeping (Math requirement), business writing (English requirement) and maybe some bull$h** psych component (Psych/Soc requirement). There are MBA programs that deal with retail management; but, none (that I know of) for manufacturing and workforce management. As far as I know, anyone who aspires to lead in these areas learns OTJ (i.e. hard knocks). Myself, I find little value in an advanced degree unless it is grounded by experience within a specific industry (i.e. the application of the theory) – which is a chicken/egg argument in and of itself.

Beverly from Bra Makers suggested a long time ago (and KF & I chatted about this once, offline) that maybe DEs should consider getting into the CMT business before launching their lines. That suggestion has sat in the back of my mind for quite some time. I see value in that proposal. I think it’s an excellent way to build capital, develop standard work processes and develop manufacturing skills before launching one’s own line (see above re: subcontracting to an existing CMT house). Little-by-little, one would phase out the contracted work and fill the work schedule with the DEs own product.

The only snag I can see is that the DE/Mfg needs to exercise foresight. There have been several articles about “stolen” (whether real or perceived) designs which should be heeded. IMO, the remedy might look like:

I do tailored menswear. But, there are skills and equipment related to other products. If I were to take on contract work, I’d sew: dog beds, scooter seat covers, tailored dresses, uniforms, etc. that I knew would never collude with my line.

I also think 5 years is tilting firmly into 'analysis paralysis'. If I'd waited to be (and more importantly feel) ready to do -anything- in my life, I'd still be in school :-). But then again, it depends on how you define 'starting'. If I were to try and become a DE, would you count preparation from the time I learned to sew, at 11, or from the time I started running a business (which didn't do so badly as all that), or from the time I started really thinking about it in more general terms?? I could claim 40 years of preparation :-), but reality isn't that close.

I also think that it's clear that schools aren't teaching that many practical skills. I don't think that's got much to do with field - I see many Masters of Computer Sciences now, as opposed to the ragtag bunch of medieval lit or beekeeping refugees I started working with 30 years ago, and frankly all their theory isn't any help when the deadline comes down. Schools are good in terms of organizing knowledge and giving you a survey of what you don't know, and in some fields it's now necessary to pass through that hurdle. But nothing replaces practical experience, and it's much better if you can get that while being paid and guided by someone else. Even if you only get to learn from their mistakes, and miss a final paycheck as they're closed down.

There's something Kathleen isn't saying explicitly about all this but which jumps to my eye. She might have been ready to start at some point (although I suspect there was some degree of pressing need and opportunity passing by as for most of us). But what really matters is not what she knew up front, but that she's still learning. How many of you spend your vacations reading at the Library of Congress? Is this a woman who goes home after a long day and watches the latest soap?? Does she feel so self-satisfied from having written a stupendous book that she rests on her laurels and merely tells us what to do? Hell no, she's constantly analyzing what she could do better, how others are doing things in ways that seem better, how the situation is changing etc etc, and being much more diligent about research than most people are when they're still in school.

I'd summarize it this way: you know you're ready to get in business when you've figured out how to work AND learn at the same time.

I also find great resonance in Kathleen's motivation for writing the book :-). I'm one of the few software developers I know who actually thinks hard and takes great care about user interface, help, and manuals. But that's not because I'm a nice girl, it's because I know that at some point I'll break down and scream 'RTFM!' while slamming the phone down. ['read the fucking manual' for those of you who only sew].] I have a sneaking feeling that many excellent how-to books were written with just those hopes of being left alone to work in peace..

In regards to Miracle’s entry regarding bad questions it isnt that people are asking bad questions and we shouldn’t answer them. The problem is the questions themselves show how little experience some DE’s have and if they are asking those questions then maybe they need to do a lot more research before they start shelling out money to create a company. I don’t want to get too personal but there are some questions on the boards that scare the hell out of me. For example one person asked a question regarding using a fabric that only comes in one colorway. They didn’t know if they could use that fabric because it only had one choice for the buyers. In my opinion, if you don’t know that as a designer it is customary to use whatever damn fabric you deem the market wants then maybe you should do a little more (and by a little I mean a lot) research about how to design a line of clothing and the manufacturing process.

Schools might not teach everything a person needs to know, but they do teach how to merchandise a line, how to design properly, how to fit clothing, how to make patterns, how to grade, and the manufacturing process. I agree they don’t do enough to teach business, but that doesn’t mean they don’t teach anything at all. That is why I hold strong in my belief that if you want to be successful in this or any business then the ideal way to do it is get a basic degree in whatever field you choose and then work in that business. That doesn’t mean it is the only way to do it. Miracle spoke of four very successful businesses that had little to no experience in the garment trade, however they are the VAST minority.

I just don’t know how to answer some of these questions because I feel like it is not in good conscience to help someone who really needs to go back and learn much more about the business before they continue with what they have. People on this board are shelling out thousands of dollars and taking second mortgages on their homes to fund a dream that will probably fail. How can I help someone ruin their credit and loose their life savings by answering questions like ‘should I manufacture a line before I have sold the goods’.

In regards to Miracle’s statement:It would be a shame if DEs were met with the same level of frustration when they tried to seek help from accountants, or marketing consultants, or other such people. Then they would say "why do people think that just because they can design clothing that they can run a business?"

Frankly it is the accountants and marketing consultants job to tell DE’s if they are not ready to be running a company, and if they are just yes-men then they aren’t worth a dime. Why would it be a shame to help someone realize they need to do so much more work before they spend thousands on a company? My accountant and lawyer see DE’s all the time who are not ready to be starting companies and they wonder to themselves ‘why do people think that just because they can design clothing that they can run a business.’ because frankly, most DE’s cant.

A great resource for learning about manufacturing and supply chain management -- quality, cost-control, on-time delivery -- is APICS, the Association for Operations Management (formerly the American Production and Inventory Control Society) at www.APICS.org. (By the way, the American Textile Manufacturers Institute link on the APICS website is wrong; use www.textileweb.com instead.)

I am pleased to announce that the fashion design students at El Paso Community College where I head the Fashion Technology program get a great deal of business math. Design students are required to take the merchandising classes in addition to the draping, patternmaking, illustration, collection design, coomputer aided apparel design, etc.

I have always felt that a designer/manufacturer had to been deeply aware of business math for their own company and to better understand the workings of the retail end of the industry.

Our students study profit/loss, sales forecasting. sales distribution, the Schedule C, markup/mark on (and the HUGE difference between them,) prelimiary costing, stock/sales ratios, stock turn, retail purchase assessment, price points, price ranges, volume price ranges, and on and on... so I wanted to let you know there is at least one fashion program taking these items into account. Our students are also required to take accounting but I am not the instructor for that area.

I have always felt that fashion design programs housed in art departments at the same university where a fashion merchandising program is housed in the business department show us the problem... most schools take the approach that design is an art vs a business. This causes students to think that designing is disconnected from the business end of the house... ouch!

Natasha wrote:
"I just hired a new assistant who already had your book! I was so thrilled. Why aren't the schools using it?"

Natasha, take heart, some of us do use Kathleen's great knowledge to enrich our students educational career. Because my students did not take my advice to spend time on this unbelievably fabulous blog, I have made it a weekly requirement in my collection design class.

Ooops, so sorry, I hit the Post button vs the Preview button so I cannot edit my mistakes above.

"Attention to detail" - the other boards I post to have the buttons in the opposite position... my creature of habit nature has betrayed me!

Hey Evelyn,
Thanks for responding, thanks to everyone for responding. Now I think I understand what you were saying--basically that there's a whole heck of a lot more to having your own "clothing line"--streetwear or otherwise--than splattering paint on some American Apparel shirts, re-labeling, and calling that your clothing line. I dig, I dig. By the way, I think there's virtue in the different avenues one takes to get to their desired goal. As long as you honestly assess your strengths and weaknesses you can take the necessary steps. This site rocks...very, very informative.

One thing to mention that has not been brought up is that Kathleen's book is not going to stop someone from failing. But for sure the pocket book won't hurt so bad when something does fail. I think what has made some designers successful their ability to bend with the market. The one's that can quickly make the changes necessary to stay successful. That's why being a small designer is soooo great; tweaking, whatever, can almost be done instantaneously. And many times the tweaks fail.

So my advise is don't be afraid of failure...cuz we all do some type of failure or mistake at some point. It's minimizing the impact and bouncing in the right direction that will make you successful. And listen, listen, listen to what your reps are telling you and the store owners are telling you.

BTW, I always laugh when I tell people I'm a clothing designer. I always let them know that it's not glamorous at all and I have to work just as hard as everyone else.

I also think 5 years is tilting firmly into 'analysis paralysis'. […] But then again, it depends on how you define 'starting'.

Most micro-business owners I’ve worked with over the years have had what I call bench projects for many years. They conceive of either a product or a business and tinker with it in their spare time for many years. Picking a starting point is subjective. One can accomplish 2,000 hours of heads-down work in 1 year or 20 years depending on the level of commitment. A long or short cycle has no bearing on thoroughness, completeness or adequate preparation.

When I say it takes 2 years to acquire adequate knowledge in a field, it’s because it takes constant exposure (4,000 hrs = 40 hrs/wk * 50 wks/yr) to touch every aspect of the job at least once. Likewise, it takes the same 4,000 hrs to fully develop a business concept with a product to sell. A “super committed” person is capable of working in their chosen field and developing a business concept in parallel (8,000 hrs in 2 yrs). But, the truth of the matter is, any human working at this rate will burn out before the 2 yrs are out. Looking at it from this dimension, spreading 8,000 hrs of effort over 5 yrs is smarter, pragmatic and achievable. Especially when your day job is funding both life and the startup company.

I certainly wish my school had taught more business stuff. I had to drop marketing class then when I was able to take it again, they didn't have it any more. We took a retail buying class, but that's no way the same. I read a ton of books on business and home-based and 1 person businesses. I still don't know everything and I've never been that great with math.

J C Sprowls - "RE: fashion schools & business. There isn’t a fashion program that I’ve ever seen that teaches anything beyond basic bookkeeping (Math requirement), business writing (English requirement) and maybe some bull$h** psych component (Psych/Soc requirement)."
......
Bethany - "Schools might not teach everything a person needs to know, but they do teach how to merchandise a line, how to design properly, how to fit clothing, how to make patterns, how to grade, and the manufacturing process. I agree they don’t do enough to teach business, but that doesn’t mean they don’t teach anything at all. That is why I hold strong in my belief that if you want to be successful in this or any business then the ideal way to do it is get a basic degree in whatever field you choose and then work in that business."
...............
So is school bullshit or a sound investment and/or foundation. Or does the individual person have to decide that for themselves and hope that the $50,000 in student loans was worth it.

So is school bullshit or a sound investment and/or foundation. Or does the individual person have to decide that for themselves and hope that the $50,000 in student loans was worth it.

I think schools are actually more comprehensive (and competitive) these days. I think if I had to go to school now (I have a good idea based on Trish's program, I'm on her advisory committee), I'd be overwhelmed. I did a bare bones program, it was set up to train pattern makers rather than designers. I never had a merchandising class at all. Still, I think you pick those things up with experience. Or maybe I have an innate sense of the logic of it? I have *no* problem picking out orphans! I think *any* kind of education is valuable but I don't agree a degree is required (I have no degrees at all, the last thing I graduated from was junior high). That only proves you're minimally middle class with resources and support. By any measure you all have stipulated, you would have given me a thumbs down for sure. Education is what you make of it. While my ongoing investments in my continuing education could be interpreted as a measure of my diffidence, I don't feel compelled. Merely interested.

One thing we haven't discussed in curiousity. I thought Danielle was going to blog on that but she didn't. If you're not curious, I don't see how one can attain what by anyone's measure, is "success". If a designer is not curious, intellectually curious, there's no there, there. I think that is the abiding characteristic, curiousity. If one is sated with what they already know, I can't say they don't succeed, only that they don't excite me or cause me to covet.

There's something Kathleen isn't saying explicitly about all this but which jumps to my eye. She might have been ready to start at some point (although I suspect there was some degree of pressing need and opportunity passing by as for most of us). But what really matters is not what she knew up front, but that she's still learning. How many of you spend your vacations reading at the Library of Congress? Is this a woman who goes home after a long day and watches the latest soap?? Does she feel so self-satisfied from having written a stupendous book that she rests on her laurels and merely tells us what to do? Hell no, she's constantly analyzing what she could do better, how others are doing things in ways that seem better, how the situation is changing etc etc, and being much more diligent about research than most people are when they're still in school.

What I haven't said explicitly is that I haven't started a line mostly because I haven't felt compelled to do so (in addition to current limitations). I think lines should be started by people with a passion to do them. That's not where my passion lies. That said, I think I will be starting one but this would mean I will be less available, closer to retirement. A line is what I'll do when I retire and mostly, to prove a point. Like Zara (and contrary to much of the advice here), I don't believe that the lack of the marketing of my line will be my undoing. It depends on one's goals and patience. I have no burning need to be an overnight financial powerhouse. I'm more comfortable with slow, sure and sustainable growth. Call me arrogant but I fully intend that the blouses I will make will become collector's items. That is the standard I'm shooting for, collectibles. Everyone says that but few are willing to commit the resources to really do that. These will be costly and time consuming to make. Just training sewing operators to sew them will be several years if not ongoing, work.

It's not that I don't feel ready (hence my continuing education) and thus my reluctance to start. It's that doing so would herald the end of all this (or start another variation, a training center). I can't do both. That and my personal circumstances. I have some limitations on starting a venture, namely spousal involvement and his current career, that I'm not at liberty to discuss publicly. My concept is such that it's not time dependent. A good concept is timeless. It'll go over just as well (or maybe better) in five or ten years than it will today. I suspect demand will actually be greater in the future because the things I've decided will be "hot" usually take longer to bear fruition. I decided in 1995, that fashionable laptop bags would be a hit and I almost started manufacturing them but if I had, I would have been ahead of the curve. I can think of all kinds of ideas I've had ten years ago that are just now hitting their stride.

My other option, oft discussed, is to become a sewing contractor (combination training center) of high end goods. I think I'd be overwhelmed with work from the day I open my doors so I don't feel a pressing need to jump on that option either. Esther sent me a link to something Seth Godin wrote that bears iteration here, The Scarcity Shortage. Certain things I think, will always be scarce. Some will be scarce by necessity and not in demand (buggy whips). The trick is to produce something scarce that is in demand. If you can do such, your opportunities will be horizonless. Anything requiring complex execution will remain in demand and I don't think it'll take much marketing to move it.

OK, me again--to answer some of your questions and respond to assumptions.

1. Study abroad: Had the money after a nasty divorce to go and live in Italy and study fashion design. That was the start of the journey. Was going to intern with Armani, but had to come back to take care of family. Was supposed to be only 3 weeks, but if you have children with problems, you'd understand. Didn't go back Italy.

2. Came back to states, and went directly into reading and writing my business plan, because, of course, someone would want to give me start-up money. WRONG. Money ran out--had to go to work.

3. Went back to working a day job and learning patternmaking and doing my designs at night and on weekends. Then had health problems--got fired twice. Bought food instead of fabric.

4. Financial disaster--almost have to file bankruptcy. Didn't, and kept making more prototypes and doing all of my own fittings WITH NO HELP. Like one-handed clapping.

5. Finally, started using a "professional" patternmaker. That was a year ago. I've already posted about how that was a disaster and she flipped out on me.

6. Now working with a very talented patternmaker, but still working a day job and between her schedule and mine, the patterns are coming along very slowly.

7. GOOD NEWS: Am now going to have enough money to at least get a few pieces out into the market within the next 6 months.

Folks, it takes MONEY to get an apparel business going. Period. If you don't have it-it takes longer. Bless all of ya who have been able to get to market sooner. You are very lucky.

So is school bullshit or a sound investment and/or foundation. Or does the individual person have to decide that for themselves and hope that the $50,000 in student loans was worth it.

Hmmm... you took a different emphasis away from what I had hoped to convey. I don't think school is bull$h**. I think some programs are poorly designed and have bull$h** components which don't adequately prepare you for your career path.

Would I be happy to have the time/money to return for an MFA in Fashion Design? Yes.

Will an MFA help me run a Mfg concern? No - it makes me a better designer.

Will the BBA I currently have help me operate a Mfg concern? No - it only helps me administer it.

Summation: More is learned through practical application (i.e. working in the field). Education is either an adjunct to or a criterion of entry.

A college degree recognizes knowledge in a core subject. But it is more. A college education that is worth anything will teach the student how to learn, how to study, and how to grow. I still consider myself a student - I want to learn more and I love to study. Is $50,000 a waste for a design degree? The price seems high, but has it made you a better person, a better student of life? I like my college's motto, "Enter to learn, go forth to serve."

As a home sewer, and someone who doesn't plan to sell anything (except perhaps one-offs) and thus an outsider who reads with interest, here's what I don't understand: why does the 'E' have to be combined with the 'D' in one person or a partnership? As far as I know, visual artists are not required to sell their own work - they may do so, but they also have agents and galleries and such. Why does a clothing designer also have to be an expert at running a business? It just seems odd that creative people have to morph themselves into salespeople...

As a clothing designer, you must know what will sell. That is the objective. In my opinion, you must know both sides: D and E. I just happen to be someone who loves doing both sides of the process/business.

Well, I just learned that Esther and I went to the same college! The motto, "Enter to learn, go forth to serve" made a huge impact on me as a freshman. I want to agree with what has been said, education is worth whatever you put into it. I am a steady (voracious) reader of this site and links. I am filled with curiosity and was so excited to follow Kathleen's adventures at the LofC. For myself, it has been a blessing to have that BA in Fashion Design, even though I had to work to put myself through college and ended up with loans. The basic skills learned there have been a great platform to grow from, I have been able to use my skills to trade for things my family needed and to give as a volunteer. The irony is that when my husband was fired, because I had a BA I was able to get a job as a librarian, and later as a subsitute teacher--they didn't care that the degree was in fashion, in fact it intrigued them. My personal advice, get all the education you can, however you can and never stop learning. If there are any other alumni out there who want to contact me I am at adens, numeral twenty-six, at msn dot com.

I feel that the best advice is to learn to make patterns. Learn it, learn it, learn it. Sew it, fit it, fix it. To transition from sketch to product you MUST have a pattern. This is the point where I see so many people get hung up. If you can't make a pattern, you will spend less to learn than you will on one round of patterns from a professional patternmaker.
Also, you should be the first one to see how your pattern sews up. I have had some very humbling learning experiences in, thankfully, the privacy of my own studio. No one wants to be humiliated at their contractors but I guarantee you will be as soon as you pass off a pattern to them that can't be executed. Plus sewing up your first proto is an invaluable opportunity to refine your design before you pass it of to the factory and pay $40.00/hour for your first proto to be sewn up.
Save your money to pay to have your sales samples sewn. They have to be perfect, and are a good confirmation of expected quality and timeliness from the contractor.
If you learn to make patterns you will always have an in demand skill and you will save yourself a lot of money.

Frankly it is the accountants and marketing consultants job to tell DE’s if they are not ready to be running a company, and if they are just yes-men then they aren’t worth a dime. Why would it be a shame to help someone realize they need to do so much more work before they spend thousands on a company? My accountant and lawyer see DE’s all the time who are not ready to be starting companies and they wonder to themselves ‘why do people think that just because they can design clothing that they can run a business.’ because frankly, most DE’s cant.

Actually, it's an accountant's job to perform accounting duties. Most are not general business consultants and do not engage in the subjective task of deciding whether you are "ready" to run a company. They can tell you how much money it will take until you are cash flow positive, and whether you have enough. But most, quite frankly, are usually not engaged in the business of general consulting.

They are, after all, accountants and deal primarily in the finite.

The same with marketing consultants. If you need business assessment, you get a consultant specifically for that. You don't go to a publicist or a marketing consultant and say "am I ready to start a company". And if you're paying them to do marketing or publicity, you're not paying them for general business consulting and they would express such when queried for such advice.

My point is that DEs here (even respected ones) ask questions that, to someone in a business profession, can be construed as scary. You might freak an accountant out if you were running a business, extending terms, and don't know what 8/10 Net 30 means. An accountant might not sleep at night because people just offer net 30 terms but do not know how to calculate how much it costs them to offer terms (and there is a cost, even if it is an "opportunity cost"). You might scare the heck out of them offering terms and not understanding them because it's "the norm" for the industry.

My point is that if everyone had to lay their cards on the table even some of the respected DEs wouldn't be "ready" to start a business of judged on business terms. It's kind of easy to sit on a high horse and look down at the DEs (on industry specific terms) and think they don't know much, but quite frankly, their area of expertise could be in another field and this here is "new" to them. And so they inevitably seek advice from someone to whom their questions may seem pedestrian. If everyone had that kind of attitude, then (well, honestly) most of you wouldn't get any help from anyone and you'd have to go to school, or gain "real life experience" managing books, operations, business planing, writing marketing plans, etc. and all the other tasks that go along with running a company.

Thankfully, it's not like that. And when you ask an accountant what 8/10 net 30 means, they will tell you instead of saying that "you aren't ready to run a business" because you don't know something that's second nature to them.

People on this board are shelling out thousands of dollars and taking second mortgages on their homes to fund a dream that will probably fail.

Such is the nature of any industry. And going to school or working in the trade isn't necessarily insurance against that. I've seen many stellar designers, educated at the better fashion schools, close up shop because they just couldn't run a business or make enough money to pay someone to take over the operations for them.

Dear Miracle,

First of all I wanted to thank you for introducing me to that tv show on entrepreneurs. I have it listed on my tivo to record and I am excited to watch it tonight.

However, though I see your point regarding accountants, marketing managers, etc, I have to respectfully disagree. My accountant has been in the garment industry since people were throwing skins on their backs. He is very aware of how much money I am spending in relation to how many orders I am getting and is making sure I don’t blow my life savings. I believe this makes him an awesome accountant. BTW, my lawyer is the same way. Yes, accountants deal with the bottom line. And yes, they will freak out if you are asking questions like what is a net 30 and such, but if you are selling the crap out of your line, I think they will still be happy. HOWEVER, if you are asking questions AND you are not getting orders, a good accountant should ask you questions about your business plan, your goals, and your background to make sure you are properly prepared to continue with your business. Frankly both my lawyer and my accountant asked me all of those questions upon meeting them.

As for people taking second mortgages out and it being the ‘nature of the industry’ that doesn’t mean I have to agree with the status quo. I don’t think it is responsible to give advice to people who have done nothing to deserve my advice and are spending money for a dream they know nothing about. If someone has not read K’s book or gone to school or worked in the industry, they are not ready to be running a business. There are exceptions, but they are far and few btwn. And though doing the above doesn’t guarantee success, it certainly gets you closer then not doing them.

Most companies don't see profit for THREE YEARS!

I want to touch on this because this is one of those quotes that has been repeated so much it is accepted as fact, and never phrased within context.

This is an old quote. It might not even be statistically true today. I don't have the time now to research it and see, but what I can tell you is, without a doubt, this quote was referencing extremely well capitalized companies.

I say this because one of the biggest reasons small businesses fail (used to be the biggest, not sure if it still is) is lack of adequate capital to sustain them until they are cash flow positive (or through negative cash flow periods). If you walk into this thinking you have 3 years to turn a profit, I guarantee you, you will run out of money before then.

Most small businesses, especially micro businesses, need to be profitable year one, no matter how small, and definitely by year 2. If you can't, you're either spending too much or not selling enough. Almost all of you don't have enough cash/credit for 3 consecutive years of losses.

It bothers me that this quote goes around the way it does, because it usually is never said within context. It's textbook B-School, they aren't talking about people like you and I. They are talking about people with investors shelling out millions.

This is why business plans are so important. And the critical part of the business plan is not your fluff, your mission and all that, it's your financial statements, and the assumptions that went into them.

You hear many quotes like "I started my business for $5,000" But they never really talk about how much they had to keep putting in until the business was cash flow positive. This is usually the kiss of death for small businesses. And this is why most small businesses that need loans need an installment loan for start up and a line of credit for cash flow.

So, DEs, if you want to stay alive, figure out how to break even or turn a profit year 1. Year 2 at the absolute latest. Even if that means selling your wares on the corner to pay bills or cutting back on trade shows and other expenses (and finding less expensive ways to sell). I have watched and read too many stories of brilliant designers constantly losing money and needing more, needing more. Like people just invest in businesses for the goodwill of it all.

I don't know about all of you but I'm enjoying the debate between Bethany and Miracle.

Not having a business background, I never heard the three year rule. It sounds reasonable but I don't know how sustainable that is. I never really thought of it except in terms of how much profit one needs to generate -and quickly. Btw, how are we defining "profit". Does profit mean a respectable salary or over and above that? I could be wrong but I think most DEs would settle for a reasonable return being salary and no further out of pocket costs in the short term, unless it's debt tied directly to the finance of capital goods (aka infrastructure). But as far as taking a hit on each season's production? No way. You should never lose money on that. Each lot should pay for itself. Why else would you do it? If you can't make money on a style, drop it.

Btw, how are we defining "profit". Does profit mean a respectable salary or over and above that?

Profit means having money left after all expenses are paid. Whether a designer draws a salary is a business decision but does not change the meaning of profit.

You asked a good question. I have seen companies "fudge" with how "they" define profit because they don't want to acknowledge that there is a definition.

I really do think it's important for DEs to understand things like income statements, cash flow projections and profit and loss statements. Many times, when a DE fails with a line/business, that line failed on paper. You could have looked at a financial analysis (but usually there was't one) and would have seen that it wasn't going to work.

I think when DEs look at financial projections, it opens their eyes as to what they need to do to be able to stay in business, or sell their production. I think sometimes, people want to look at it in simplistic terms, without taking into account all the variables.

For example, when DEs ask "is X markup enough?" financial analysis tells you that (and it doesn't have to be complicated, it could be a simple spreadsheet). You put in that % and watch the numbers change, either it is enough or it isn't. Either you're going to make enough money to cover the expenses or you are not. Without that, anyone's answer is either a guess or based on industry averages.

Bye all, back to MAGIC!

Miracle:

Your points are cogent...well thought and you have obviously been around awhile. When I was selling advertising I would've loved to have you as a client! I would like to speak to the 3 year thing. I agree, that you can't take a hit on production and actual items sold...it would kill anyone. As a marketer, the mistakes I see that keep people from profiting (meaning they can't quit their day job) is that they spend money on the superfluous, like have really expensive websites, printing too much dated marketing material (like 10,000 catalogs that will be out of date in 2 months) and other things that general business acumen would dictate not to do. You're also right about the continuous investment thing. Eventually you have to be held accountable for all that money down the tubes. When I talk to new designers and the issue of financing comes up, they say "oh, I'm going to get an investor" I cringe and tell them gooood luck!

Generally most business people, not just designers, have no concept of what money is to a business. It's a resource and you use it as you would use any resource. The best advice I ever got was: Even if you have a million dollars in the bank, bootstrap yor business as if you had $1000. Designers are the worst perpetrators, though, because many (in the beginning) buy into their own hype that they have to be luxe in everything they do...right down to the most expensive computer paper. The good news is that I think most DE's learn after the first couple years and reign it in. Everyone gets sick of working 80 hours a week.

I love where this is going. I can't wait to read more.

I used to get bent out of shape when people would be constantly draining me with questions on how to start up or where to source...i decided after awhile to start a business doing just that! now, instead of getting frustrated with clients'/potential clients' questions, I DEMAND they read/buy Kathleen's book. DE's need to do some kind of homework!

I agree that you also need some basic business understanding. (that wasn't even MENTIONED when I went to school-Otis Parsons now called Otis School of Art & Design)You can hire people to do all the work for you, but it would behoove you to know what those people you are paying are doing!

Miracle raises points that CPAs and Lawyers are not business consultants. Bethany happens to be lucky because her CPA has a specialty and is willing to share business advice. Though, his advice will be slanted toward his perspective - bookkeeping (a retrospective activity), not strategy/planning (a proactive activity).

Business consultants are generalists who work with specialists (i.e. CPA, Lawyer, PR, Operations Mgrs, etc) to meet the clients' needs. In effect, a Business Consultant is an advocate who will deliver & execute according to the Sponsor's requirements.

Miracle raises another good point that the "three year" statement is out of context. It's a 20-second sound byte that is often misinterpreted - even by green business consultants.

As Miracle says, a business needs to be cashflow positive, immediately. It is acceptable to be "net red" for a period of time because you, the owner, opt to defer salary or you are expanding an established enterprise. But, I typically don't recommend being in this status for very long. It takes a deeper understanding of tax code, business law and finances and you need to be counseled through it. For the micro-business it's frequently more trouble than it's worth because you can just grow more slowly.

Why do I say this? Because the IRS gives you two years to become profitable. Otherwise, you run the risk of having your business re-classified as "hobby income" and you lose the depreciation of your startup costs and have to pay retroactive taxes. A simple test is this: if you can't realize $5K of gross sales in the year, then don't spend $5K on salary, equipment, goods, marketing, etc. If you drive your business to net $0, year-after-year (also called "running into the ground"), you're running a hobby. The IRS will call a halt to that at the end of year 3 with penalties and back taxes.

If you're effectively generating enough profit to buy equipment, great. Just call it what it is. Keep doing it because it pays for itself. Keep reporting it as a net $0 hobby income on your tax forms. One symptom of "not ready for business" is this. So, just wait until you have a profitable year in front of you and establish your business that year.

Coming back to "three years". This is where the myth is based. At year 3, all tax consequences kick in. Startup business plans typically forecast the initial 3 years to comply with tax code (though, few business students realize this). Frankly, that's a cheater plan. It's business school BS (see... we get it there, too). I don't like it because it's not about real people, real money, and real lives. As my grandmother used to say: "Figures don't lie. But, Liars always figure!"

*Real* business plans have a Proof-of-Concept period before the business is executed. This is the "off paper" plan where you take on hobby jobs to generate enough revenue to justify investing in core equipment or developing core skills (i.e. paying for continuing ed or a degree) that you will transfer into your business at a later time.

PS: I'm loving Andrea's input, too. One bit of bootstrapper advice I received a long time ago was to manage the time & money bandits. For example: do you really need a new computer or expensive software? Do you really need to spend 1hr on an initial consult (non-revenue generating activity) when only 15 mins will suffice? What's the purpose of the consult (e.g. sell? sign? inquire?)

JC writes: ... Because the IRS gives you two years to become profitable. ...

I'm pretty sure that the IRS gives you two years to be cash flow positive.

Which is not profit. And there is a substantial difference.

MBA's that focus on production management exist, but only at a particular kind of school. Search out schools with operations research / management science departments, and you'll find these rare animals.

Off the top of my head, MIT, Stanford and Carnegie Mellon all have OR/MS MBAs.

You're right, Crackers. And, you're the smartie I knew would keep me honest!

I didn't know CMU added OR/MS to their degree programs. But, to be frank, I never had the budget (or the desire) to pursue an impressive sheepskin. The closest I got to really smart folks was working in CMUs costume department :-)

This is such a fascinating discussion.....so much business though, my head is starting to hurt! Not that I don't recognize the importance of having a plan. But it sounds as if everyone wants to start a BIG business and expects to have BIG and immediate success. Does starting out with a lot of money behind you insure this? Not necessarily. Isn't the biggest impediment to success not the throughness of one's business plan or the impressiveness of one's financial backing, but rather the esthetic quality of one's designs accompanied with the quality of materials and construction?

A business plan can be tweaked and re-tweaked and never be perfect. If your goods are junky or ugly or don't fit anybody right, no one will buy and the excellent business plan will be just another expense that didn't produce profit. Doesn't anybody want to start small? Doesn't anybody just want to start?

Speaking from personal experience, I know it can be done on the skinniest of shoe strings because I've been doing it for the past three years. My business is miniscule by most people's standards---my garment output so far this year measures only in the hundreds. (By the way, not only do I design, cut and sew, but I also dye the silk in a three-part process before any of that other stuff.) But I'm making a profit! Okay, the exclamation point is undeserved as all "profit" goes to paying down some shocking credit card debt, and up to now, when not filling my own orders, I'm sewing for somebody elses wholesale business.

But I'm off to New York in barely three weeks to do a wholesale show and hope to at least double this years income. IF anyone were to ask me advice, well, not advice really, but something to think about, I'd have to say that the biggest concrete wall we put up in our own path is a fear of failure (or maybe a fear of not having a solid enough business plan). But the reality of not trying at all is hardly any different in the end.
And there's no better training than what you get on the job...after having read Kathleen's book, of course.

Ann K: I just loved your post. You seem to be a smart educated woman who is following her dream and I think that is wonderful.

As for your question regarding starting small, I think a lot of people, and I am guessing quite a few on this site, like to stay small and grow organically. I know I do. My CPA and lawyer just dont understand why I dont try to grow big fast. I try to explain to them I love being able to be home by 3:00 so I can spend the afternoon with my kids, but they dont get it- usually what they see is the bottom line- not the fun in doing what you love even if the profits are not as huge as they could be.

Oh and congratz on the trade show in a few weeks. Please let us know how it goes.

Ann K,

I do think you have a business plan. It involves setting prices that cover your inputs plus a margin, and producing goods that justify high prices. It also involves growing only as fast as the business can support.

It sounds like a very sound and sensible business plan.

I am interested in Katies comment, you started a consulting business on how to start up and source? This could be very helpful, I am moving from Canada to Seattle Washington next month and am having a hard time finding fabric sources and just generally transferring my business know how to another country.

On a separate note, as long as you don't go into debt higher than you can handle, whats wrong with just "starting". So your business fails? you still learned a lot and made yourself more employable and more business savvy than you were if you hadn't started. Personally I only learn by doing, then referring back to something I read or was taught.

Amanda,
I live in the greater Seattle area. Just thought I'd let you know, and anyone else in the area, there is a Fashion meet-up group in Seattle. I barely discovered it and haven't been to "meet" them yet, though have chatted a bit on line with a few of them. Welcome to the Northwest!!

-Andrea D.

Hello I am in the research stage at this point. I believe I am really on to a wonderful and unique Idea, but as you said I havnt a clue yet. So other than the book which I intend to include into my studies, are there further suggestions. I have googled myself crazy and seem to not find what I am searching. Maybe I am not using correct terms Im not sure. I really want to learn more about drop shipping and the process of having samples made and submitting them to a manufaturing company, I am a baby in this arena but look forward to absorbing as much info as possible before even attempting to past just having the Idea. thanks for any info you can pass on.

To all new DEs - GET KATHLEEN'S BOOK as soon as you can. It provides an overview of the business which will make your whole process much faster.

2nd: THANK-YOU THANK-YOU THANK-YOU to all who have posted here. As a new DE myself there is no other resource to learn so much so fast. Think of yourselves as a community service - educating the uninformed like me so we don't wear out our welcome, so we can avoid some mistakes, and providing us comfort and reassurance that we are at least on the right track.

Hello: I can definitely tell by reading that you very knowlegable about you field of work. However for myself I am clueless, I don't know any thing about marketing at all. I have studied health an music for most of my life. But I do like to create different attire I recently made a men tie, I am interested in putting a men tie line on the martket but I only have the desire I really don't know how to get started. If you can tell me I would be for ever greatful. Every one has a line out and I am cluess as to how to how they go about it

Thank you latishajay@yahoo.com