Sleeve cap ease is bogus

Once again I realize that the more I learn the less I know! I have been altering my sleeves to look like the one on the right to better accomodate my forward shoulders. Here I thought my body was just odd! I’m starting to think that your book would be helpful even to those of us who are only sewing for ourselves….

FABULOUS sleeve tech.. THANK YOU!!

On the book:
It is PERFECT for homesewers as well- JUST THE WAY IT IS!! They will learns SCADS of new information and think differently than they ever have in the past..
If you do not own this ook you are MISSING OUT on one of the richest information sources EVER!!

I think that Jinjer is asking about the sleeve seam matching up with the side seam of the bodice; this is something that I strive for as well since I like to be able to iron my sleeves flat (like a man’s dress shirt). Toward this end, I also like my shoulder point to be exactly midway and match my shoulder seam. This was difficult for me to accomplish especially when I was trying to put in an inch of ease as per my instructions. The trick is to fool with the shape of the sleeve cap as in your sketch.

This is an argument I’ve recently gotten into with my Mother, who has been a home sewer for many decades. I think she started making her own clothes around age 12, something like that. She will not accept the no sleeve cap ease idea.

When I first got the idea to create a clothing company she would ask me things like “Do you know how hard it is to set in a sleeve?, Do you really want to make clothes for other people?” To this day she still tries to scare me out of it. As I get further along I realize that nothing she has ever said or will say in the future has any validity to it. She’s a home sewer and as I like to tell her “You don’t know your but from a hole in the ground!” lol

This is such incredible validation. My own patterns look like Kathleen’s, but I thought it was that my own body was weird - narrow, sloping shoulders. You can find identical sleeve patterns in vintage European pattern books. This is the first I’ve seen the armscye and sleeve correlated.

When I did the sleeve tutorial Kathleen published, I had to dig for a pattern old enough to look “standard”, and the notes on adding the ease were due to the same “well, everybody knows” and being too chicken to buck it. Buck, buck, buckcaw.

My next project for myself is a Chanel-style jacket - hadn’t decided on the fabric. It will now have a prominent check.

Note: the drapery-weight method works nicely for matching the stripes or plaids - just put extra pins through those matches, and eliminate the adding-ease step at the end.

ENTREPRENEUR’S GUIDE - credit where due, belatedly.

I mentioned above having figured out the corrected arm scye - it was from Kathleen’s book, which I got quite a number of years ago and devoured. I’ve referred to it frequently since, but only recently have gone back through and reread the works.

Any good book deserves a complete review periodically. This one, more than most.

You must have been Leonardo in your past life.

I’m a beginner is sewing. Don’t ask me what a beginner is doing at your website. I’ve learnt a lot from here.
When I made the muslin for my very first shirt, the whole sleeve ease thing was baffling. I found it stupid to have so much material on the top. I couldnt understand how that would facilitate ease when my arm moves.
This post makes me want to try making a shirt without sleevecap ease. Thanks!

“what, do they expect you to hang a weight or something right there?” To his surprise, I said that was exactly how they expected one to correct the flaw.

you mean there’s a way to do it so weight isn’t necessary? I’ve even seen weights in rtw…

Hmm I’ve been hacking my sleeves up for years making them look like the example on the left just to make them fit. I always thought I was just being bad

My comment is not for Kathleen but rather for those who have added her book to their wish list. I know some of the names from lists and forums and I read how much fabric and pattern buying shopping you do. My advice is for you to forego a couple of those purchases and buy the book for yourselves - NOW. You will never, ever regret doing so. :>) Right this minute, I wish I knew which milk crate *from moving) my copy is hiding in!

Snipped from Kathleen’s article:

” That’s why I now say that the only experts more irritating than those who co-opt “couture” to describe their skills, are those co-opting “industrial sewing”. Let’s hang the ones who do both :)”

Well Kathleen I see your dance card’s gettin pretty full!:)) I have one thing to say, I’ve got the rope and the tree…let’s string em up!!:))

Another myth to add to the ever growing list…it’s not always the sewist’s fault!!

Respectfully,
Debbie Soles
former sewing factory “expert”…lol..worker
meat eater
but mainly a gal who just loves to sew!!:))
AND a gal who now is so friggin sick of words like “couture”, “industry techniques”, “chanel jacket”, “japanese tailoring”…to name a few.
OMG I feel a major rant brewing!:)

And just saying use no sleeve cap ease isn’t enough info…it goes with the shorter shoulder length, the shoulder line stopping at the correct shoulder/arm point, the depth or height of the armhole, and correct front/back width measurements. If you want good looking caps with these type sleeves then you’re going to have to use a shorter shoulder length so the arm doesn’t impede fit or movement.

Debbie mentions some of the issues that I’ve been grappling with since this post, and hints at the reasons why I actually DON’T believe that ease is never necessary. Here’s my grapplings so far.

Note: I am NOT a patternmaker, the following musings come from examinations of clothing, bodies, a good grasp of geometry, and books by real and fake experts–read with a good dose of skepticism. And I’ve fiddled a bit with sleeve and armscye shapes trying to work out this problem.

Shoulders aren’t square, but round. So, the seam that joins the sleeve to the bodice has to create some roundness over the shoulder. This is the job that ease is intended to do.

This is hard to describe without pictures, but in order for you to get a round shape emerging from a seamline without using ease, you have to gradually increase the relative slope between the two pieces–i.e. at the peak of the round shape, the pieces have a similar curve, but as you extend away from that peak on either side, the slope of the round side gets progressively steeper relative to the other piece. Otherwise, you get a dumb-looking point at the seam instead of a nice curve.

The following variables affect ease (tee-hee)of creating this perfect relationship between armscye and sleeve shapes:

1) Squareness of shoulder
Squarer shoulders require higher sleevecaps. because the top of the shoulder is further away from the armpit. but see #7.

2) Length of shoulder seam.
The longer the shoulder seam, the more you’re squaring off the shoulder, and the less roundness you need.

3) Bicep circumference.
The bigger your arm, the more limited the sleevecap within a given armscye length-more on this below.

4) Size of armscye
More armscye = more length to play with, but! The further away the armscye extends away from your actual arm socket, the mor elimited your motion becomes–unless the garment is REALLY baggy.

5) Shape of armscye vs. arm socket.
When it comes to the armscye size vs movement relationship, not all armscye sizes are equivalent. extra space between armpit and bottom armscye will limit movement more than extra space above the shoulder (generally supported by a shoulder pad, except in dropped shoulders)

6) The angle the sleeve inserts into the armscye.
Again, this is a little hard to explain without images, but the relative shapes of teh sleeve and arscye determine the angle at which your sleeve emerges. Picture a perfectly rectangular sleeve set into a perfectly rectangular garment–the sleeve emerges from the garment at a right angle. now keep those sewn together and cut a curved shape out of the gament, leaving the old seam in the sleeve. Th eresulting armscye is more natural, but th esleeve still emerges at a right angle. now shave off the curves on teh sides of teh sleeve. The more you shave off, the higher the sleevecap gets, and the steeper the angle at which the sleeve enters the body becomes. I believe (and this is fairly intested) that in a complex sleeve shape, this angle is determined by comparing the portion of the sleeve just above the switch from inside to outside curve to the corresponding part of the armscye. For more on this, see #7 & #8

7) How much extra fabric you can stand in your armpits.
Chances are good you don’t walk around with your arms straight out at your sides.* So if your sleeves come out at a right angle and you put your arms down, all the extra fabric** bunches up under your armpits. It looks pretty skanky to me.
How high above your head you want to raise your arms.
At least three things affect this motion: 1) the relationship of armscye to body. An armscye that floats away from your body limits arm-raising motions, especially in combination with a tight waist (your garment rides up to find the extra length lost in making a sharp corner into a oblique one) and 2) the angle at which the sleeve exits the armscye: the bigger the angle in the armpit, the easier it is to raise your arms and 3) the amount of gusset built into and/or added to your sleeve (but note that this also increases extra fabric in the armpits): You know how the sleeve shape echoes the armscye for a bit and then reverses to oppose it? The portion below the reversal is a built-in gusset. ***

The roundness acheivable without making the bicep too narrow for comfort is limited because you can’t just pull the cap up high and narrow or it’ll get pointy at top. (see Carol’s post on using drapery weight to make a sleeve patterns for a great visual of the inverse relationship between cap height and bicep width).

It is totally possible to balance these elements to create a beautifully-fitting sleeve that allows a reasonable range of motion with no ease. For example, suit jackets have high sleeve caps because the angle of the sleeve is optimized to a relaxes of slightly forward position (but don’t play basketball in your nice jacket unless it’s unbuttoned), but the padded shoulder increases the armscye and the long should requires minimal roundness.

However, there are situations where ease is totally necessary: for example, a plump (round shoulder) woman with well-conditioned arms & shoulders (big bicep) who wants a nutaralistic sleeve (short shoulder-seam length, lots of roundness) that allows a wide range of movement (relatively small armscye). You’ll tear your hair out if you refuse to put ease in the sleeve in that situation (this is not a hypothetical situation, btw).

SO put ease in sometimes, but don’t try to ease the top of the sleevecap, which is cut on the crossgrain-just ease the parts on the bias (unless it’s a bias cut sleeve-I’ve never tried one, but it could be good…), and for god’s sake, never sew a line of stitching to “ease” the sleeve before sewing it in -you’ll just gather it and the fabric will forever remember those gathers. And yes, don’t pin, it does make it harder.

Footnotes:
*unless you’re Ranma–extra points to fellow Japanophiles who got that reference.

**”Why is there extra fabric?” you ask…when you raise your arm out to your side, your armpit doesn’t move. Instead, your shoulder becomes a bit higher and further in towards your neck. Conversely, when you lower your arm from the pretending-to-fly position, the upper part of your arm gets longer relative to the underside. Two balanced things happen: the sleeve opening rides up your wrist and fabric bunches up in your armpits. Of course, you’re more likely to move your arms forward than out, which I don’t understand nearly as well, except that the back gets even wider relative to the upper chest. All of this is true for ordinary movement. Dancers tend to move differently, which is why our sleeves need to fit really differently.

***How big is the gusset? Pin the sleeve to the armscye at teh point of reversal, and pivot it until the seamlines more or less match for an inche or so above teh pin. The more overlap between sleeve and bodice, the bigger the gusset.

Hey, and just because I write like I know what I’m talking about doesn’t mean I think I do. So, feel free to lobby opposing arguments at me.

I just decided to check your blog this morning and saw this discussion regarding sleeves. Your explanation and drawings make sense to me. Lately I have started removing some from the front sleeve cap area and adding to the back. Got this from a Sandra Betzina book. It works. I find this discussion interesting. Glad I decided to check it out this morning.

I have received my madeleine vionnet book,many thanks for letting me know it was available
need more time to read it now tho!!!
jane

Hi jinjer. I wasn’t referring to you at all; I am most appreciative of your long post on sleeves since it re-capped a lot of information that I have gathered here and there from other sources. I also liked your post on dress forms vs. a measuring tape and all that stuff on algorithms. I agree with you about that 100%. I am planning to revisit my sleeve pattern in the next few days to re-configure my last analysis. I think the problem is that the best looking sleeve doesn’t allow for enough movement and, thus, any set in sleeve is a trade off on those two issues (as you mentioned). If we look at this historically, the set in sleeve hasn’t really been around for all that long and that is why I am hopeful that someone might come up with something better. I’ve noticed other designers such as Isabel Toledo and Geoffrey Beene have experimented with this problem. I, personally, feel that fit and ease of movement are more important than appearance. I also think that men’s suits are a case in point. It is deplorable (to me) that any one would be willing to wear a garment that restricts movement to that degree. Sometimes I find myself thinking that the problems of the world stem from all our leaders wearing such uncomfortable, restrictive clothing. J

I was given this link by a friend. My wife and I do medieval and rennaissance clothes and the sleeve patterns for my doublets look just like your drawing on the right (once you put the two pieces together). The body of the coat/doublet has the armscye cut towards the front.

Jinjer, I have lately been cutting close-fitting sleeves on the bias; they’re much more comfortable to wear for a woman with well-conditioned arms and big biceps.

And, Kathleen, in another of Jinjer’s posts:
“the whole arm IS forward of center. Which makes sense, I mean, it’s hanging from your clavicle, which is in the FRONT of your body. (unless you have very Victorian posture, and then it’s pushed to the sides.)” That’s what I meant! That would be my arm posture! (I didn’t want to send another email because I was afraid of looking like stalker-girl; I’m not, just a little obsessive-compulsive).

I remember Style patterns that had set-in sleeves with the shape as in Kathleen’s drawing, right hand side. I am sure they were cut on the bias.

Sadly I don’t have any of these old patterns any more. Does anyone know of a current pattern with this sleeve shape, such as maybe in the Vogue Vintage range?

I can’t figure out why a company making hocky jerseys would want to add ease in the first place. I worked with finished jerseys for 10 years and never saw one with sleeve ease. I’ve drafted two different hockey jersey patterns and cannot even figure out how to put it in- in a way that would work without effecting the style- in the first place. You’re right. End of story.

On Kathleen’s original post, and book sleeve/armhole information, my 20 years of professional alterations experience backs up all of her findings. I really enjoyed the feeling of validation I received from reading that chapter, that my observations and corrections made to patterns and garments over these years were backed up!

All this is hogwash! All this except for the statement about arms being toward the front of the body.

If you properly set a sleeve with ease it just fits better. Anything else is just pure laziness. and if you take a closer look at the jacket photo you will see that only one vertical stripe matches at the seamline. The other stripe seems to because it is cut on grain and is seen on the edge of a three dimensional sleeve. there is plenty of ease in that jacket sleeve, I’ve eased enough of them to see it.

This is in response to the armhole -sleevcap re- shape- you are a genious! I would have never thought to do this and it works! I will try to rethink what I learned in school now because this sleeve stuff is maddening- I am day 2 of reworking one sleeve. ugh! You saved me- thank you!

I did add a little ease still, without it I think the movement is still too restricted.

This makes so much sense! When I draft a two piece sleeve, the shape is a lot like your modified sleeve. There is no ease and it fits fine. I am definitely going to try this right now on a blouse I am going to make.

Hey, when I first read this post about a year ago it seemed interesting but didn’t investigate further until I got Kathleen’s book about a month ago (better late than never, right?) Then, reading the part about how the armscye, shoulderlines etc should be drafted, I got worried and promptly went to check my patterns!

Turns out, because I started learning from the British books (I’m in Europe so it made more sense to start out using metric books when I was a complete newbie) I lucked out. It wasn’t until recently that I got the Armstrong book and I finally found out some of the no-nos Kathleen’s talking about.

Was it out of trying to over-simplify things that American books ended up like that, or are the British books better just by being older? It seemed that the older the book was the more information it had on WHY something was done, versus just telling you to do something just because…

Still I’m not knocking down the Armstrong book completely since I just started going through it. I’m just glad that I didn’t have to pay full price for it (I got the international version, identical to the US one but softcover and half price!)

Oh and in case it wasn’t obvious, Kathleen is right on this one like she’s right about a lot of stuff, her book rocks, sign me up for the fan club

Kathleen, I purchased your book about a month ago, and am almost finished reading it. (In bed at night is about the only time I have!) I could write a book in response to all of your wonderful information- things that have bugged me for years about patterns and sewing, as well as most of the other things you covered. As a home-sewer-turned-fashion-school-graduate (I’ll post a bio soon), I agree with all you’ve said about sleeves and other fitting issues. These have been my biggest pet peeves with fit. I draped a muslin and tried it on an elderly client last year. After much tweaking to her contours, the armholes and sleeves turned out just like your illustrations! As did the front princess seams! And the back curve! I thought I was on drugs! I even “blended” them to make them look “more like patterns” and now I know that I was right all along. I LOVE your book, and wish I’d found it several years ago- it could have saved me $100,000 on school!!!!!! Thank you for your outstanding work- I come to this site every day. It may take a few months to read it all, but it is worth every minute. And the tutorials are amazing! (I’ll be leaving a donation soon!)If I can figure out how to get photos on here, I’ll show you my welt pockets on my blue jeans! I also want to thank you for addressing the issue of FEAR. (Perhaps you could do a post on that again soon. Every little bit of encouragement helps!) The past five years have been the worst of my life, and after several life-changing events and attending FD school, I was at the lowest point of my life- wondering why I wanted to do this and thinking that it would never work. I was embarassed to tell people what I was planning to do- thinking that I was the only one with such ideas. I even had an instructor tell me that I needed a shrink when I told her that I was afraid to get out there and get started, and that I didn’t want to become a huge corporation. Back to the sleeve and armhole issue- is there a dress form that represents that shape? I read about your new form, but don’t know if it does… I did a drape yesterday and drew the armholes like they should be. I just need to make the muslin and try on the fit. Then on to the sleeves! Thank you for everything!

I had always thought that “easing” the sleeve cap wasn’t so much about easing the cap itself, but more about easing the seam allowance. When I was taught drafting, we were told that any seam has to be the same length as the seam it is meant to be sewn to. No exception was made for sleeve caps.

BUT, when you have a convex edge on a piece, the cut edge will necessarily be longer than the seam line. So, the seam allowance needs to be eased in somewhat, but the two stitching lines are the same length. Just as I was taught to stretch out the seam allowance on a concave seam (rather than clipping), you must ease it on a convex one (and possibly steam shrink it if you’re using wool).